Strategic Development Apr 07 2026

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SPEAKER_06: you want to give it five seconds

SPEAKER_06: five seconds

SPEAKER_00: and then we will call the

SPEAKER_06: meeting to be recorded.

SPEAKER_06: Good evening everyone and

SPEAKER_06: welcome to the strategic

SPEAKER_06: development committee and

SPEAKER_06: special board meeting of

SPEAKER_06: April 7, 2026. This room

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SPEAKER_06: This meeting is being

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SPEAKER_06: the record of the meeting if

SPEAKER_06: received within two hours

SPEAKER_06: after the meeting ends. Chief

SPEAKER_06: legal officer, please conduct

SPEAKER_06: the roll call.

SPEAKER_06: Director Fishman.

SPEAKER_05: Here.

Unknown: Director Herber.

SPEAKER_05: Here.

SPEAKER_05: Chair Samborn.

SPEAKER_05: Here.

SPEAKER_05: All committee members are

SPEAKER_05: present. Also present are

SPEAKER_05: directors Rose, Buick-Thompson,

SPEAKER_05: Kirth and present Tamaia.

SPEAKER_05: Fantastic. So we will move into

SPEAKER_06: item number one on our agenda,

SPEAKER_06: which is to provide the board

SPEAKER_06: with an internal and external

SPEAKER_06: presentation and discussion on

SPEAKER_06: the vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_06: technologies. I'm very excited

SPEAKER_06: about this presentation and I

SPEAKER_06: want to thank director Herber

SPEAKER_06: for doing the pre-brief. Our

SPEAKER_06: presenters are James Frazier,

SPEAKER_06: director of research and

SPEAKER_06: development grants and

SPEAKER_06: partnerships and Zach Wogan,

SPEAKER_06: executive director of the

SPEAKER_06: vehicle to grid integration

SPEAKER_06: council. Welcome.

Unknown: Excellent. Thank you for having

SPEAKER_00: me. My name is Zach Wogan. I'm

SPEAKER_00: the executive director of the

SPEAKER_00: vehicle grid integration

SPEAKER_00: council or VGIC. I'm going to

Unknown: share more about the state of

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging solutions

SPEAKER_00: or as it's often called vehicle

SPEAKER_00: to grid technologies or vehicle

SPEAKER_00: to everything technologies. I'm

Unknown: going to start with a statement

SPEAKER_00: that unifies our organization,

SPEAKER_00: which is that EVs represent

SPEAKER_00: untapped potential beyond

SPEAKER_00: mobility as distributed energy

SPEAKER_00: resources to support an

SPEAKER_00: affordable and reliable energy

SPEAKER_00: future. VGIC, as we call

SPEAKER_00: ourselves, is a national 501C6

SPEAKER_00: member-based trade association

SPEAKER_00: focused on unlocking the value

SPEAKER_00: of managed charging,

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging and DER

SPEAKER_00: paired charging, in other words

SPEAKER_00: solar back charging or battery

SPEAKER_00: buffered storage paired charging

SPEAKER_00: or generators, EV charging

SPEAKER_00: microgrids, all the fun stuff

SPEAKER_00: you could do with EVs and

SPEAKER_00: chargers beyond just getting

SPEAKER_00: them out there. We are supported

SPEAKER_00: by around 35 organizations,

SPEAKER_00: including many of the large

SPEAKER_00: automotive manufacturers across

SPEAKER_00: light, medium and heavy duty

SPEAKER_00: vehicles, folks that do

SPEAKER_00: manufacturing of EV charging

SPEAKER_00: stations, folks that deploy and

SPEAKER_00: install EV charging stations

SPEAKER_00: and sites that charge EVs,

SPEAKER_00: and other tier one suppliers

SPEAKER_00: of software and hardware,

SPEAKER_00: as well as aggregators that can

SPEAKER_00: tap into these vehicles and

SPEAKER_00: chargers and provide services

SPEAKER_00: to a utility or to the grid.

SPEAKER_00: Excuse some of the aesthetic

SPEAKER_00: wonkiness of the slides here.

SPEAKER_00: We're used to doing white

SPEAKER_00: background, but learned we

SPEAKER_00: can't do white background here.

Unknown: That's perfect timing on the

SPEAKER_00: aesthetic wonkiness.

SPEAKER_00: What is vehicle grid

SPEAKER_00: integration? This is sort of an

SPEAKER_00: alphabet soup space, so I've

SPEAKER_00: taken out a lot of the acronyms

SPEAKER_00: that are often viewed in this

SPEAKER_00: world and want to focus in on

SPEAKER_00: what the orange box is situated

SPEAKER_00: around grid isolated

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging and grid

SPEAKER_00: parallel bidirectional charging.

SPEAKER_00: Grid isolated can be islanded

SPEAKER_00: systems that provide backup

SPEAKER_00: power, for example, to a home

SPEAKER_00: or building, and grid parallel

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging systems

SPEAKER_00: are interconnected to the

SPEAKER_00: utility's grid and providing

SPEAKER_00: power to a home, business, or

SPEAKER_00: back to the grid, either to help

SPEAKER_00: manage a customer's bill or to

SPEAKER_00: participate in some sort of

SPEAKER_00: export program or rate.

Unknown: A bunch of other stuff on this

SPEAKER_00: slide that we're not here to

SPEAKER_00: talk about today, but happy to

SPEAKER_00: follow up if folks have

SPEAKER_00: questions.

Unknown: Why VGI now? Why do we focus on

SPEAKER_00: this at the organization? Why

SPEAKER_00: do I personally wake up and work

SPEAKER_00: on this every day? First and

SPEAKER_00: foremost, to accelerate

SPEAKER_00: transportation electrification.

Unknown: All those opportunities, those

SPEAKER_00: use cases I mentioned a moment

SPEAKER_00: ago, can help to reduce the

SPEAKER_00: total cost of ownership of

SPEAKER_00: electric vehicles, and this is

SPEAKER_00: particularly important for

SPEAKER_00: fleets that use that total cost

SPEAKER_00: of ownership calculator to make

SPEAKER_00: their decisions on when to

SPEAKER_00: electrify.

SPEAKER_00: The second reason is to support

SPEAKER_00: the evolving power sector,

SPEAKER_00: helping to manage the build out

SPEAKER_00: of the grid by using load

SPEAKER_00: flexibility solutions and

SPEAKER_00: exporting solutions and battery

SPEAKER_00: storage can reduce costs and

SPEAKER_00: bolster the reliability of the

SPEAKER_00: grid.

SPEAKER_00: A third item I referenced just a

SPEAKER_00: moment ago, reducing cost,

SPEAKER_00: ensuring we could accelerate

SPEAKER_00: transportation electrification

SPEAKER_00: and in doing so, expand the

SPEAKER_00: consumption of electricity while

SPEAKER_00: also making better use and

SPEAKER_00: utilization of the grid we

SPEAKER_00: already have can help to place

SPEAKER_00: downward pressure on those

SPEAKER_00: average rates.

SPEAKER_00: So lower numerator, larger

SPEAKER_00: denominator, lower average rates,

SPEAKER_00: a lot of that's achieved through

SPEAKER_00: aligning EV load consumption and

SPEAKER_00: exports with when it's most

SPEAKER_00: useful for the grid.

SPEAKER_00: Fourth, perhaps most intuitive

SPEAKER_00: for a lot of folks, community

SPEAKER_00: resilience, large batteries in

SPEAKER_00: your driveway, in your garage,

SPEAKER_00: there's an opportunity to tap

SPEAKER_00: into that when the power goes

SPEAKER_00: out, when there's a storm, when

SPEAKER_00: there's a planned or unplanned

SPEAKER_00: outage and using that to back up

SPEAKER_00: your home or business or maybe an

SPEAKER_00: islanded section of the grid in

SPEAKER_00: a microgrid configuration.

SPEAKER_00: And lastly, fostering economic

SPEAKER_00: activity, those 30 or 40

SPEAKER_00: companies I had on our sort of

SPEAKER_00: NASCAR logo soup slide earlier

SPEAKER_00: all have electricians and

SPEAKER_00: installers and training

SPEAKER_00: facilities, manufacturing,

SPEAKER_00: headquarters and other employment

SPEAKER_00: in California.

SPEAKER_00: Some of those may also be here

SPEAKER_00: in Sacramento.

Unknown: I was going to say, too, one of

SPEAKER_06: the benefits is that I didn't

SPEAKER_06: see on there was reusing more

Unknown: efficient use of the critical

SPEAKER_06: minerals that we have available

SPEAKER_06: to us.

SPEAKER_06: If everybody has this giant

SPEAKER_06: battery sitting in their garage,

SPEAKER_06: in their car, that we cannot

SPEAKER_06: access when we need it, I mean,

Unknown: that means there has to be more

SPEAKER_06: batteries elsewhere.

SPEAKER_06: And so we only have so many of

SPEAKER_06: these minerals to go around,

SPEAKER_06: which is why I've been really

SPEAKER_06: supportive of this.

SPEAKER_06: You know, obviously there's many

SPEAKER_06: reasons.

SPEAKER_06: But also we need to recycle more

SPEAKER_06: of these as well because we've

SPEAKER_06: got to find a way to keep these

SPEAKER_06: minerals in the U.S. because we

SPEAKER_06: don't have them all.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: And one statistic that I think

SPEAKER_00: that is relevant in that regard

SPEAKER_00: of you mentioned how many folks

SPEAKER_00: have their vehicles sitting

SPEAKER_00: there.

SPEAKER_00: I think the U.S. Department of

SPEAKER_00: Transportation says 95% of the

SPEAKER_00: time on average vehicles are

SPEAKER_00: sitting idle.

SPEAKER_00: So there is tremendous

SPEAKER_00: opportunity to tap into that and

SPEAKER_00: offset some of the deployment of

SPEAKER_00: other energy storage solutions.

SPEAKER_00: I did want to note this is often

SPEAKER_00: the first question we get in our

SPEAKER_00: frequently asked questions is

SPEAKER_00: what vehicles can do this, what

SPEAKER_00: chargers can do this?

SPEAKER_00: Presently, there's a list right

SPEAKER_00: here of offerings, sort of

SPEAKER_00: solutions that are marketed

SPEAKER_00: actively to customers for home

SPEAKER_00: backup power.

SPEAKER_00: So Nissan Volvo, Polestar Ford,

SPEAKER_00: General Motors, Kia, Tesla all

SPEAKER_00: currently offer these models of

SPEAKER_00: vehicle and advertise that that

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging capability

SPEAKER_00: is available.

SPEAKER_00: Not for all model years.

SPEAKER_00: For example, that Chevy Bolt is

Unknown: the new Chevy Bolt that just came

SPEAKER_00: out.

SPEAKER_00: And on the compatible charger

SPEAKER_00: side, you'll note that there's a

SPEAKER_00: little bit of matching happening

SPEAKER_00: here.

SPEAKER_00: Not every vehicle works with

SPEAKER_00: every charger.

SPEAKER_00: But there is certainly a few

SPEAKER_00: interesting developments that have

SPEAKER_00: happened.

SPEAKER_00: One is that this slide was much,

SPEAKER_00: much smaller a year ago.

SPEAKER_00: A lot of this is very new, which

SPEAKER_00: is very exciting from our point

SPEAKER_00: of view.

SPEAKER_00: The second is that some of these

SPEAKER_00: vehicles, especially the more

SPEAKER_00: recent ones that have been added

SPEAKER_00: to this list are lower cost

SPEAKER_00: vehicles.

SPEAKER_00: The Bolt, the Equinox, even the

SPEAKER_00: Kia EV9 and of course the Nissan

SPEAKER_00: Leaf all relatively low cost

SPEAKER_00: compared to some of the ones that

SPEAKER_00: used to just be on this list

SPEAKER_00: alone.

SPEAKER_00: On the charging equipment as well,

SPEAKER_00: the costs are starting to come

SPEAKER_00: down, but they still can be quite

SPEAKER_00: high.

SPEAKER_00: We're seeing by and large the

SPEAKER_00: first generation of the charging

SPEAKER_00: equipment and the related

SPEAKER_00: hardware that's needed to enable

SPEAKER_00: this in the home.

SPEAKER_00: And with that, there's higher

SPEAKER_00: costs than we expect there to be

SPEAKER_00: over time.

SPEAKER_00: And so some of the more recent

SPEAKER_00: equipment has pretty dramatically

SPEAKER_00: reduced costs, but we're still

SPEAKER_00: getting there across this whole

SPEAKER_00: slide, this whole chart.

SPEAKER_00: And we're expecting it to grow

SPEAKER_00: quite a bit.

SPEAKER_00: On the bottom there you'll see

SPEAKER_00: Toyota, Hyundai, Rivian,

SPEAKER_00: Volkswagen.

SPEAKER_00: Last week I was at the New York

SPEAKER_00: Auto Show and Kia announced their

SPEAKER_00: new EV3, very low cost vehicle

SPEAKER_00: that will also be launching with

SPEAKER_00: this home backup power

SPEAKER_00: capability.

SPEAKER_00: So we're seeing it accelerate,

Unknown: mature pretty rapidly.

SPEAKER_00: So this has all happened

SPEAKER_00: relatively quick.

Unknown: On the electric school bus side

SPEAKER_00: of things, it's a bit more of a

SPEAKER_00: beachhead.

SPEAKER_00: My text in carry here, sorry,

SPEAKER_00: there's text.

SPEAKER_00: If you could see the blue on

SPEAKER_00: blue, which you can't.

SPEAKER_00: And in small text, I apologize.

SPEAKER_00: But the key takeaway here is

SPEAKER_00: that electric school buses

SPEAKER_00: generally have a duty cycle

SPEAKER_00: that aligns with the needs of

SPEAKER_00: the grid, meaning they're often

SPEAKER_00: sitting idle in particular during

SPEAKER_00: that summer evening peak period

SPEAKER_00: when we can use spare capacity.

SPEAKER_00: And there's a tremendous

SPEAKER_00: opportunity with 400,000 electric

SPEAKER_00: school buses around the country,

SPEAKER_00: you know, some of those, of

Unknown: course, here in California.

SPEAKER_00: Sorry, 400,000 school buses

SPEAKER_00: across the country.

SPEAKER_00: Many of those transitioning to

SPEAKER_00: electric, many of those here in

SPEAKER_00: California and Sacramento.

SPEAKER_00: There's a great chance to tap

SPEAKER_00: into those and support the grid

SPEAKER_00: and so it's been this beachhead

SPEAKER_00: for a while now in California

SPEAKER_00: with sites being developed, a

SPEAKER_00: lot of them supported by funding

SPEAKER_00: from the California energy

SPEAKER_00: commission and some of the

SPEAKER_00: smaller investor-owned utility

SPEAKER_00: funded pilots as well.

SPEAKER_00: But I do want to note that you'll

SPEAKER_00: notice there's less one-to-one

SPEAKER_00: matching here.

SPEAKER_00: In fact, there's no one-to-one

SPEAKER_00: matching.

SPEAKER_00: Generally speaking, these

SPEAKER_00: vehicles and chargers are a

SPEAKER_00: little bit different.

SPEAKER_00: They're a little bit more plug

SPEAKER_00: and play or interoperable, to

SPEAKER_00: use the technical term, than on

SPEAKER_00: the light duty side.

SPEAKER_00: It doesn't mean we're 100%

SPEAKER_00: there yet on the medium and

SPEAKER_00: heavy duty side either.

SPEAKER_00: We're just a little further

SPEAKER_00: along.

SPEAKER_00: So there's still some

SPEAKER_00: customization that needs to

SPEAKER_00: happen oftentimes in the field

SPEAKER_00: when you deploy these sites to

SPEAKER_00: get chargers and vehicles to

SPEAKER_00: talk to one another, have that

SPEAKER_00: handshake be successful every

SPEAKER_00: time.

SPEAKER_00: And so we're still in that

SPEAKER_00: first generation.

SPEAKER_00: We're still getting products to

SPEAKER_00: work in the field every time.

SPEAKER_00: And part of that is also

SPEAKER_00: maturing the ecosystem so you

SPEAKER_00: don't need that one-to-one

SPEAKER_00: matching.

SPEAKER_00: But you can truly have that

SPEAKER_00: plug and play and with it comes

SPEAKER_00: not just lowered risk of

SPEAKER_00: stranded assets, as companies

SPEAKER_00: may go out of business, but

SPEAKER_00: also more customer choice or in

SPEAKER_00: this case choice for fleets.

SPEAKER_00: But the costs are still high on

SPEAKER_00: this side as well.

SPEAKER_00: And we are expecting them to

SPEAKER_00: come down further as we reach

SPEAKER_00: more scale and more of these

SPEAKER_00: sites are deployed.

SPEAKER_00: I want to note that in addition

SPEAKER_00: to electric school buses, we're

SPEAKER_00: starting to hear about some more

SPEAKER_00: sites and more use cases that

SPEAKER_00: might be interesting.

SPEAKER_00: Next steps, refuse trucks,

SPEAKER_00: street sweepers, other sort of

SPEAKER_00: specialty use, very highly

SPEAKER_00: predictable duty cycle that may

SPEAKER_00: line up well having the dwell

SPEAKER_00: time during that evening peak.

Unknown: So the very exciting topic we

SPEAKER_00: get...

SPEAKER_00: My day job is with Sacramento

SPEAKER_04: Regional Transit and I'm

SPEAKER_04: assuming transit buses are not

SPEAKER_04: typically included in this

SPEAKER_04: because they're busy most of the

SPEAKER_04: time.

Unknown: Generally speaking, yes.

SPEAKER_04: Are they even manufacturing

SPEAKER_04: electric transit buses with

SPEAKER_04: vehicle to grid capability or is

SPEAKER_04: it just they're just not doing

SPEAKER_04: it?

SPEAKER_04: It's a good question.

SPEAKER_04: I don't know.

SPEAKER_00: It might be worth asking where

SPEAKER_00: your procurement is.

SPEAKER_00: Okay, thank you.

SPEAKER_00: But one thing that we've

SPEAKER_00: learned in California, there was

SPEAKER_00: a joint agency working group back

SPEAKER_00: in 2019.

SPEAKER_00: We were part of California

SPEAKER_00: Energy Commission, the

SPEAKER_00: utilities commission, CAISO,

SPEAKER_00: about 100 different participants

SPEAKER_00: representing a whole swath of

SPEAKER_00: stakeholders.

SPEAKER_00: We mapped out 2500 use cases

SPEAKER_00: for VGI, right?

SPEAKER_00: All the ways customers will

SPEAKER_00: interact with their vehicles and

SPEAKER_00: their vehicles can interact with

SPEAKER_00: the grid.

SPEAKER_00: And what we found is that that's

Unknown: a great academic effort, but boy

SPEAKER_00: is it take a lot of time and

SPEAKER_00: you're not sure where you get at

SPEAKER_00: the end.

SPEAKER_00: What is maybe a potential

SPEAKER_00: opportunity is to move toward

SPEAKER_00: rates or programs or pathways

SPEAKER_00: that are more agnostic toward

SPEAKER_00: use case and see sort of who

SPEAKER_00: gravitates toward them because

SPEAKER_00: the way people interact with

SPEAKER_00: their vehicles and the way

SPEAKER_00: they're interact with the grid

SPEAKER_00: with their vehicles can vary

SPEAKER_00: tremendously.

SPEAKER_00: So I hesitate to say that, you

SPEAKER_00: know, one use case is

SPEAKER_00: particularly great or not great

SPEAKER_00: with the exception of school

SPEAKER_00: buses, which again have been the

SPEAKER_00: beachhead for the past several

SPEAKER_00: years.

Unknown: And, okay, I'm sorry to make

SPEAKER_04: this all about me, but I also

SPEAKER_04: drive a Hyundai Nexo.

SPEAKER_04: Are there any fuel cell electric

SPEAKER_04: vehicles that are doing vehicle

SPEAKER_04: to grid?

SPEAKER_04: Not that I'm aware of, but fuel

SPEAKER_00: cell electric vehicles do use the

SPEAKER_00: hydrogen to power a small

SPEAKER_00: battery.

SPEAKER_00: Right.

SPEAKER_00: So perhaps there is an

SPEAKER_00: opportunity there if the

SPEAKER_00: products start to move in that

SPEAKER_00: direction.

Unknown: Okay.

Unknown: All right.

Unknown: This is the exciting topic that

SPEAKER_00: we get asked about a lot.

SPEAKER_00: Home backup power, it's neat.

SPEAKER_00: Electric school buses, also

SPEAKER_00: neat, but there's this tremendous

SPEAKER_00: opportunity in light duty

SPEAKER_00: passenger EVs, of which we have

SPEAKER_00: I believe 2 million in California,

SPEAKER_00: over 2 million.

SPEAKER_00: So from 2008 to 2023, I'll call

SPEAKER_00: this sort of the testing and

SPEAKER_00: demo phase.

SPEAKER_00: In fact, that picture on the

SPEAKER_00: left is University of Delaware

SPEAKER_00: where vehicle to grid was

SPEAKER_00: arguably invented.

SPEAKER_00: And in 2024, we just now saw our

SPEAKER_00: first real customer deployments

SPEAKER_00: of grid parallel bidirectional

SPEAKER_00: charging.

SPEAKER_00: In other words, not just for

SPEAKER_00: home backup power, but for use

SPEAKER_00: cases that can sort of more on a

SPEAKER_00: daily basis provide power to a

SPEAKER_00: home, manage a bill, or export to

SPEAKER_00: the grid.

SPEAKER_00: In 2025, we saw those first

SPEAKER_00: exporting customers.

SPEAKER_00: Three in Maryland, and we saw

SPEAKER_00: Ford announced they've been doing

SPEAKER_00: some testing in Vermont and

SPEAKER_00: Michigan.

SPEAKER_00: PG&E, Massachusetts, and the

SPEAKER_00: California energy commission have

SPEAKER_00: all launched, and Connecticut as

SPEAKER_00: well, sorry I left them off this

SPEAKER_00: slide, all launched these

SPEAKER_00: what I will call deployment

SPEAKER_00: pilots, moving from the

SPEAKER_00: demonstration of does this work

SPEAKER_00: in the field with real customers

SPEAKER_00: to what happens when we launch

SPEAKER_00: 100 or 1,000 of these things.

SPEAKER_00: How do we stress test our

SPEAKER_00: systems, do our interconnection

SPEAKER_00: rules work, do our compensation

SPEAKER_00: mechanisms work, what does it

SPEAKER_00: mean for your rooftop solar

SPEAKER_00: system to add one of these.

SPEAKER_00: So there's a great deal of

SPEAKER_00: learning that comes when you move

SPEAKER_00: from that one off demo to what if

SPEAKER_00: we do 100 of these, 1,000 of

SPEAKER_00: these.

SPEAKER_00: But again, I want to highlight,

SPEAKER_00: this is all happening really

SPEAKER_00: fast.

SPEAKER_00: In fact, almost all of those

SPEAKER_00: 2025 announcements were in like

SPEAKER_00: November and December.

SPEAKER_00: So we're just now at the front

SPEAKER_00: end of this, and on the right

SPEAKER_00: hand side you'll see Tesla just

SPEAKER_00: launched in Texas and have said

SPEAKER_00: they're coming to California next

SPEAKER_00: with the three large investment

SPEAKER_00: utilities to participate in their

SPEAKER_00: emergency load reduction program.

SPEAKER_00: We've got some other stuff

SPEAKER_00: happening now in Washington.

SPEAKER_00: PG&E is very quickly went from

Unknown: 2 to 30 customers in their

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging pilot.

SPEAKER_00: So it's exciting, it's

SPEAKER_00: accelerating, but again, these

SPEAKER_00: are kind of one-to-one matching

SPEAKER_00: of vehicles and chargers, and we

SPEAKER_00: still have a lot to learn as we

SPEAKER_00: deploy at a larger and larger

SPEAKER_00: scale.

SPEAKER_00: So the million, billion, or

SPEAKER_00: trillion dollar question, right,

SPEAKER_00: what's it worth?

SPEAKER_00: The technical potential is

SPEAKER_00: immense.

SPEAKER_00: So the California Energy

SPEAKER_00: Commission has published

SPEAKER_00: analysis.

SPEAKER_00: They conducted with the national

SPEAKER_00: lab of the Rockies, formerly

SPEAKER_00: NREL, showing that today we

Unknown: have 18 and a half gigawatts of

SPEAKER_00: energy storage capacity in our

SPEAKER_00: electric vehicles in California.

SPEAKER_00: That exceeds all of our

SPEAKER_00: stationary energy storage in the

SPEAKER_00: state combined.

SPEAKER_00: So it's an immense technical

SPEAKER_00: potential.

SPEAKER_00: What we don't know, however, is

SPEAKER_00: how many folks are going to

SPEAKER_00: install the relevant equipment

SPEAKER_00: and how many folks are going to

SPEAKER_00: be plugged in at the right time

SPEAKER_00: with the right state of charge

SPEAKER_00: with the preference and behavior

SPEAKER_00: that matches the needs of the

SPEAKER_00: grid.

SPEAKER_00: That is the X factor.

SPEAKER_00: That is the big unknown here.

SPEAKER_00: Again, the deployment pilots

SPEAKER_00: scaling from one to 10 to 20 to

SPEAKER_00: 100 to 1,000 customers will start

SPEAKER_00: to reveal some of this.

SPEAKER_00: So we're still learning.

SPEAKER_00: We're tuning in very closely as

SPEAKER_00: the trade group to see how these

SPEAKER_00: pan out, and it will help to

SPEAKER_00: evaluate that behavior.

Unknown: Yes.

Unknown: I just had a quick question.

Unknown: You know, all these pilots that

SPEAKER_08: everybody is doing, is there a

SPEAKER_08: general amount of money that this

SPEAKER_08: costs, you know, me as a resident

SPEAKER_08: who owns the electric vehicle?

Unknown: That's a great question.

SPEAKER_00: We've seen for these pilots very

SPEAKER_00: heavily subsidized equipment.

SPEAKER_00: So in Massachusetts, the Clean

SPEAKER_00: Energy Center there, which is

SPEAKER_00: their sustainability economic

SPEAKER_00: development quasi-public agency,

SPEAKER_00: they've provided $6 million to

SPEAKER_00: fully subsidized chargers for

SPEAKER_00: nonresidential and school bus

SPEAKER_00: sites.

SPEAKER_00: So they're saying we've got, we'll

SPEAKER_00: pick up the full tab, not just the

SPEAKER_00: equipment but the installation

SPEAKER_00: costs.

SPEAKER_00: The California energy commission,

SPEAKER_00: depending on the recipient of the

SPEAKER_00: grant and sort of how it flows

SPEAKER_00: through on the residential side,

SPEAKER_00: you can get like $10,000 or more

SPEAKER_00: dollars to help offset those

SPEAKER_00: costs.

SPEAKER_00: So heavily subsidized in those

SPEAKER_00: pilots right now.

SPEAKER_00: So I can get, let's say, $10,000

SPEAKER_08: is that going to cover it all?

SPEAKER_08: Or is it $20,000 and I'm getting

SPEAKER_08: 10?

SPEAKER_08: Yeah, so the, of that chart I

Unknown: showed earlier, some of those

SPEAKER_00: systems cost $10,000 MSRP, then

SPEAKER_00: you also have the installation.

SPEAKER_00: Some of them are much lower, but

SPEAKER_00: not eligible then for those

SPEAKER_00: larger rebates.

SPEAKER_00: So some of the newer systems are

SPEAKER_00: lower now, like $1,500 to $2,500,

SPEAKER_00: which is almost achieving that

SPEAKER_00: parity.

SPEAKER_00: With a unidirectional charging

SPEAKER_00: system.

SPEAKER_00: So we're getting lower on costs

SPEAKER_00: from the product side and those

SPEAKER_00: rebates are helping to fill in

SPEAKER_00: the gap for now as well, just so

SPEAKER_00: we can learn from those pilots.

SPEAKER_00: Yes.

Unknown: So again, the X factor is what

Unknown: will the participation rates

SPEAKER_00: look like.

SPEAKER_00: I know it's very small text, but

SPEAKER_00: I'm really meant to just provide

SPEAKER_00: this as an overview that you can

SPEAKER_00: make assumptions and try to come

SPEAKER_00: up with, okay, what if enrollment

SPEAKER_00: looks like, what it looks like

SPEAKER_00: for smart thermostats, right?

SPEAKER_00: This isn't a very inconvenient

SPEAKER_00: thing.

SPEAKER_00: Yes, there's upfront costs and

SPEAKER_00: decisions to be made, but it's

SPEAKER_00: largely behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00: Your vehicle sits there for 10

SPEAKER_00: hours.

SPEAKER_00: You only need two hours of

SPEAKER_00: charge.

SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of wiggle room

SPEAKER_00: there to play with the customer

SPEAKER_00: experience and not bother them.

SPEAKER_00: And so there's an argument to be

SPEAKER_00: made.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe the smart thermostat

SPEAKER_00: enrollment is kind of the floor

SPEAKER_00: for what the uptake or enrollment

SPEAKER_00: might look like.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe not.

SPEAKER_00: So there's a whole list of

SPEAKER_00: studies here.

SPEAKER_00: These are California specific.

SPEAKER_00: We've also got stuff from MIT and

SPEAKER_00: in New York and other markets.

SPEAKER_00: This is a mix of national lab,

SPEAKER_00: E3, Brattle, Stanford, Berkeley,

SPEAKER_00: environmental groups, even PG&E

SPEAKER_00: themselves in one case.

SPEAKER_00: The general theme is that, again,

SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of potential.

SPEAKER_00: It varies depending on where you

SPEAKER_00: are, but through those pilots

SPEAKER_00: we'll learn more and pin down

SPEAKER_00: what that sort of real capacity

SPEAKER_00: value is, right?

SPEAKER_00: What is it worth?

SPEAKER_00: How reliable is it to show up

SPEAKER_00: when dispatched?

SPEAKER_00: So how do we scale?

SPEAKER_00: We break our work down into four

SPEAKER_00: policy work streams,

SPEAKER_00: enterization interconnection,

SPEAKER_00: which answers the question,

SPEAKER_00: can I connect to the grid?

SPEAKER_00: Compensation, which answers the

SPEAKER_00: question, what will I save or

SPEAKER_00: earn?

SPEAKER_00: Upfront cost, which answers the

SPEAKER_00: question, will I have some help

SPEAKER_00: to pay for the system?

SPEAKER_00: And then technical standards,

SPEAKER_00: which is will it all fit

SPEAKER_00: together or do I need to buy a

SPEAKER_00: specific type of system?

Unknown: Just some case studies real

SPEAKER_00: quick.

SPEAKER_00: Some areas are clarifying that

SPEAKER_00: these systems do in fact fit

SPEAKER_00: within existing interconnection

SPEAKER_00: rules for energy storage systems,

SPEAKER_00: so not needing to reinvent the

SPEAKER_00: wheel, but just providing those

SPEAKER_00: clarifications or minor

SPEAKER_00: enhancements, and we're seeing

Unknown: more in new states.

SPEAKER_00: Connecticut should be on this

SPEAKER_00: list as well.

SPEAKER_00: On the compensation side, oh,

SPEAKER_00: these colors got really weird.

SPEAKER_00: On the compensation side, there's

SPEAKER_00: also a wide range of opportunities

SPEAKER_00: and how they're run and how

SPEAKER_00: they're expressed, but I think

SPEAKER_00: a lot of it is falling into

SPEAKER_00: these emerging technology

SPEAKER_00: agnostic virtual power plant or

SPEAKER_00: demand response programs where it

SPEAKER_00: provides you a capacity payment.

SPEAKER_00: It varies tremendously based on

SPEAKER_00: where you are, but it provides

SPEAKER_00: that certainty that customers

SPEAKER_00: need to adopt the equipment,

SPEAKER_00: having that payment framed in

SPEAKER_00: terms of capacity.

SPEAKER_00: Upfront cost support, I've

SPEAKER_00: referenced earlier some existing

SPEAKER_00: and pending rebates in some

SPEAKER_00: cases.

SPEAKER_00: The CEC one in the bottom there

SPEAKER_00: is actually up to $13,800, so

SPEAKER_00: quite a bit, but smaller

SPEAKER_00: chargers in some or smaller

SPEAKER_00: dollars per charger in some

SPEAKER_00: cases.

SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of content.

SPEAKER_00: I just want folks to take this

SPEAKER_00: as like a take home if they want

SPEAKER_00: to check it out, and there are

SPEAKER_00: just several examples where this

SPEAKER_00: progress is happening.

SPEAKER_00: So I think I'm a little over my

SPEAKER_00: allotted time.

SPEAKER_00: Just want to mention we do have

SPEAKER_00: some best practices items online,

SPEAKER_00: some deliverables that folks can

SPEAKER_00: check out as well.

SPEAKER_00: I'm also available.

SPEAKER_00: There's my e-mail for folks who

SPEAKER_00: want to reach out and follow up,

SPEAKER_00: but I believe now happy to take

SPEAKER_00: some questions and then hear from

SPEAKER_00: S&M as well.

Unknown: Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: Can you go back a couple of

SPEAKER_06: slides?

SPEAKER_06: You had showed some data about

SPEAKER_06: who's doing all the different

SPEAKER_06: pilots and the unique concern

SPEAKER_06: scientists, I think, there.

Unknown: So California, in California,

SPEAKER_06: managed charging can save $4.2

SPEAKER_06: billion in system costs by 2045,

SPEAKER_06: and bidirectional charging

SPEAKER_06: capability can unlock an

SPEAKER_06: additional $3.5 billion at a

Unknown: modest 12.5% participation rate.

Unknown: That sounds absolutely stunning

SPEAKER_06: to me in the era of

SPEAKER_06: affordability and people having

SPEAKER_06: a hard time paying for anything.

SPEAKER_06: I just wanted to point that out

SPEAKER_06: because that to me is just, it's

SPEAKER_06: kind of buried in there, but

SPEAKER_06: it's very powerful data.

SPEAKER_06: I'm assuming you think it's

Unknown: accurate.

SPEAKER_06: I can't attest to the accuracy

SPEAKER_00: of any of these.

SPEAKER_00: I've never done my own modeling.

SPEAKER_00: I can certainly catalog them and

SPEAKER_00: list them here for folks if they

SPEAKER_00: want to Google that title and

SPEAKER_00: check them out for themselves.

Unknown: For people like me, I have solar

SPEAKER_06: in my house and I have an

SPEAKER_06: electric car.

Unknown: It doesn't make sense to me if

SPEAKER_06: I have a battery, a very

SPEAKER_06: expensive battery in my car, that

SPEAKER_06: I would then pay another, even

SPEAKER_06: with amazing smud rebates, which

SPEAKER_06: we have.

SPEAKER_06: It doesn't make sense to me to

SPEAKER_06: have to buy a battery wall when

SPEAKER_06: the battery is sitting right

SPEAKER_06: there in the car.

Unknown: And it's mobile.

SPEAKER_06: You can move it to where you

SPEAKER_06: need it, which is good and bad.

SPEAKER_06: I know it cuts both ways.

SPEAKER_06: But I just wanted to point that

SPEAKER_06: out because I find that very

SPEAKER_06: important.

SPEAKER_06: Anybody else want to have a

SPEAKER_06: question?

SPEAKER_06: Yeah.

Unknown: If you have an existing EV, if

SPEAKER_04: you have an existing EV, is the

SPEAKER_04: choke point then just the

SPEAKER_04: charging infrastructure that you

SPEAKER_04: have at your house, will existing

SPEAKER_04: EVs, maybe from this year or from

SPEAKER_04: five years ago, will they do this

Unknown: without adverse impacts on the

SPEAKER_04: battery or the car, the software,

SPEAKER_04: all of that?

Unknown: Is it some will, some won't?

Unknown: Yes, some will, some won't.

SPEAKER_00: It's not universal.

SPEAKER_00: That, you know, I simplified this

SPEAKER_00: slide a little, but for the Nissan

SPEAKER_00: Leaf, for example, it's not every

SPEAKER_00: model year, right?

SPEAKER_00: It is several going back several

SPEAKER_00: years, but it's not every Nissan

SPEAKER_00: Leaf.

SPEAKER_00: So there's some limitations.

SPEAKER_00: And you did ask about impacts on,

SPEAKER_00: I believe, warranty or battery.

SPEAKER_00: I did want to mention that because

SPEAKER_00: that's a commonly asked question.

SPEAKER_00: We see that being handled in

SPEAKER_00: several different ways.

SPEAKER_00: But generally speaking, it's our

SPEAKER_00: understanding that automakers are

SPEAKER_00: very interested in doing this.

SPEAKER_00: And they're just approaching it

SPEAKER_00: and collecting data, doing these

SPEAKER_00: limited deployments to understand

SPEAKER_00: the impacts on the battery.

SPEAKER_00: We've seen some examples already,

SPEAKER_00: Volvo and Polestar, when they

SPEAKER_00: launched just a couple months ago,

SPEAKER_00: they said you get 4,000 kilowatt

SPEAKER_00: hours a year on a rolling 365 day

SPEAKER_00: basis, you get 4,000 kilowatt

SPEAKER_00: hours to use for this

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging stuff.

SPEAKER_00: And that's covered.

SPEAKER_00: If you go over that, it's not

SPEAKER_00: covered.

SPEAKER_00: So there are different approaches

SPEAKER_00: that can be used.

SPEAKER_00: There's also an approach being

SPEAKER_00: considered at the United Nations

SPEAKER_00: global technical regulation level,

SPEAKER_00: or GTR, that's called the virtual

SPEAKER_00: mile standard, which says let's

SPEAKER_00: measure miles not just for

SPEAKER_00: traction or for mobility, but also

SPEAKER_00: for these other purposes, like

SPEAKER_00: bidirectional charging.

SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's what our measurement

SPEAKER_00: should be, our standard should be.

Unknown: So do any of the studies, or is

SPEAKER_03: there some other source of

SPEAKER_03: information that you're aware of

SPEAKER_03: that considers the conflict

SPEAKER_03: between using your house as a

SPEAKER_03: using your car as backup and the

SPEAKER_03: need to actually use your car as

SPEAKER_03: a car, is that reflected in here

SPEAKER_03: in these estimates of additional

SPEAKER_03: capacity?

SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so some of these studies

SPEAKER_00: do take assumptions about when

SPEAKER_00: customers might need their

SPEAKER_00: vehicle and what their sort of

SPEAKER_00: data charge would be.

SPEAKER_00: Others take real data.

SPEAKER_00: So, for example, the Stanford

SPEAKER_00: study, you know, they actually

SPEAKER_00: took real world data from an

SPEAKER_00: automaker, even actually pre-COVID

SPEAKER_00: because they wanted to better

SPEAKER_00: understand maybe what that would

SPEAKER_00: look like.

SPEAKER_00: The analysis was just done, but

SPEAKER_00: the data is pre-COVID.

SPEAKER_00: So it is real world.

SPEAKER_00: In addition to mobility, what

Unknown: sort of wiggle room do we have to

SPEAKER_00: play with with these extra

SPEAKER_00: kilowatt hours?

SPEAKER_00: So it is in that case taken into

SPEAKER_00: account.

SPEAKER_00: Thank you.

SPEAKER_02: Any other questions?

Unknown: Okay.

Unknown: I think we'll go on to James.

Unknown: Thank you so much.

Unknown: Thank you very much.

Unknown: Thanks.

Unknown: I also want to say thank you for

SPEAKER_01: that presentation, and now I want

SPEAKER_01: to do a little bit of work to kind

SPEAKER_01: of map that large kind of what

SPEAKER_01: the nation is doing and what this

SPEAKER_01: larger conversation looks like

SPEAKER_01: down to what this picture looks

SPEAKER_01: like for Sacramento and our

SPEAKER_01: community and our customers and

SPEAKER_01: the things that we're doing to

SPEAKER_01: help bring this opportunity

SPEAKER_01: forward.

SPEAKER_01: I also want to start with a chart

SPEAKER_01: that just highlights the number

SPEAKER_01: of vehicles that are engaging in

SPEAKER_01: this vehicle-to-grid charging and

SPEAKER_01: interaction conversation.

SPEAKER_01: When we see a chart like this, if

SPEAKER_01: we go back five years, this was

SPEAKER_01: just a chart about the type of

SPEAKER_01: auto manufacturers that were

SPEAKER_01: thinking about building electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicles.

SPEAKER_01: It was do we add a new model to

SPEAKER_01: our line?

SPEAKER_01: Do we expand what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01: In just a really short period of

SPEAKER_01: time, really in the last couple of

SPEAKER_01: years, the conversation has rapidly

SPEAKER_01: transitioned to not just we're

SPEAKER_01: building electric vehicles, but

SPEAKER_01: we're leaning into these advanced

SPEAKER_01: features.

SPEAKER_01: We're leaning into things that

SPEAKER_01: create stackable value for

SPEAKER_01: customers and EV drivers.

SPEAKER_01: It's a really exciting message that

SPEAKER_01: we're seeing from the automotive

SPEAKER_01: OEM industry around their

SPEAKER_01: willingness and excitement to lean

SPEAKER_01: into this type of technology.

Unknown: It makes the potential that we're

SPEAKER_01: talking about for this market and

SPEAKER_01: for this grid value really

SPEAKER_01: tangible.

SPEAKER_01: When we look at what the electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicle adoption looks like in

SPEAKER_01: Sacramento, last year in 2025, we

SPEAKER_01: added 12,000 new electric vehicles

SPEAKER_01: to the region.

SPEAKER_01: That's an 18% increase from the

SPEAKER_01: number of vehicles that we had in

SPEAKER_01: 2024.

SPEAKER_01: It brings our total of electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicles over 76,000 electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicles now.

SPEAKER_01: That's 76,000.

SPEAKER_01: That's 6% of the total population.

SPEAKER_01: There's still a massive amount of

SPEAKER_01: transportation electrification to

SPEAKER_01: go.

SPEAKER_01: As we see these OEMs adding this

SPEAKER_01: vehicle to grid capability, that's

SPEAKER_01: really seeding the market.

SPEAKER_01: When you're buying an electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicle today, when you're buying

SPEAKER_01: one next year, when you're ready to

SPEAKER_01: replace your vehicle, there's a

SPEAKER_01: good chance that that next electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicle that you buy will be

SPEAKER_01: provisioned for this.

SPEAKER_01: That will be plug-in ready for

SPEAKER_01: this so that when you have that

SPEAKER_01: charger in your garage, when you

SPEAKER_01: pull up to a vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: charging station as part of a

SPEAKER_01: workplace charging program in the

SPEAKER_01: future, that your car is

SPEAKER_01: compatible and that we can access

SPEAKER_01: that market potential.

Unknown: At the same time, I also want to

SPEAKER_01: acknowledge that it's a very

SPEAKER_01: nascent market.

SPEAKER_01: We're early in the technology

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: You'll see the first vehicle up

SPEAKER_01: there, the Ford F-150 Lightning.

SPEAKER_01: One of the most exciting

SPEAKER_01: commercials for vehicle to home

SPEAKER_01: or back at Power Commercial two

SPEAKER_01: years ago was the Ford Lightning

SPEAKER_01: truck pulling onto the road and

SPEAKER_01: pulling up in front of a house

SPEAKER_01: that was totally dark, plugging

SPEAKER_01: in the truck and the house

SPEAKER_01: energizing.

SPEAKER_01: Really exciting from a customer

SPEAKER_01: resilience, energy independence

SPEAKER_01: standpoint, a phenomenal customer

SPEAKER_01: experience in terms of that

SPEAKER_01: vehicle being able to enable

SPEAKER_01: something that didn't exist

SPEAKER_01: before.

SPEAKER_01: And at the end of 2025, Ford

SPEAKER_01: announced that they're

SPEAKER_01: discontinuing that particular

SPEAKER_01: model and that they're not going

SPEAKER_01: to be manufacturing that.

SPEAKER_01: Now, they'll likely be switching

SPEAKER_01: to a parallel hybrid and

SPEAKER_01: continuing to invest in this

SPEAKER_01: technology.

SPEAKER_01: But what I want to highlight is

SPEAKER_01: that there is a lot of growth

SPEAKER_01: and shifting in this market.

SPEAKER_01: It's still very early.

SPEAKER_01: And so certainty needs to be

SPEAKER_01: taken with an understanding that

SPEAKER_01: the market is still moving, it's

SPEAKER_01: still evolving, the technology is

SPEAKER_01: still advancing.

SPEAKER_01: And so the importance of

SPEAKER_01: research and development and

SPEAKER_01: building this baseline

SPEAKER_01: understanding into our long-term

SPEAKER_01: plans becomes absolutely critical

SPEAKER_01: for getting it right.

SPEAKER_01: So we have over 80,000 vehicles

SPEAKER_06: that are electric.

SPEAKER_06: But how many of them do we know

SPEAKER_06: are vehicle to grid capable?

SPEAKER_06: So we do not know the specific

SPEAKER_01: number on which of those are.

SPEAKER_01: We expect that it's a pretty low

SPEAKER_01: percentage as most of the

SPEAKER_01: vehicles that are getting are

SPEAKER_01: enabled for full vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: are very much in the most recent

SPEAKER_01: model years.

SPEAKER_01: So probably closer to that 12,000

SPEAKER_01: number or less.

Unknown: Yeah, it just makes me think if

SPEAKER_06: we had any idea it would be

SPEAKER_06: interesting just because we're

SPEAKER_06: doing so much to get the battery

SPEAKER_06: walls out.

SPEAKER_06: But we've got these rolling

SPEAKER_06: around town.

SPEAKER_06: And if we can actually figure out

SPEAKER_06: how to do a pilot with them, that

SPEAKER_06: would be fascinating at some

SPEAKER_06: point.

SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: And I'll have a chance to talk a

SPEAKER_01: little bit in a couple of slides

SPEAKER_01: about what a pilot like that

SPEAKER_01: might look like and the capacity

SPEAKER_01: that we could expect to see.

SPEAKER_01: So that's an exciting

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

Unknown: It's not just a light-duty

SPEAKER_01: conversation, though.

SPEAKER_01: We also see this conversation

SPEAKER_01: taking root in heavy duty.

SPEAKER_01: Zach mentioned that electric

SPEAKER_01: school buses are really a beach

SPEAKER_01: head for the vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: We're very much seeing that in

SPEAKER_01: California as well.

SPEAKER_01: A large majority of this

SPEAKER_01: conversation is policy driven

SPEAKER_01: with Senate bills supporting

SPEAKER_01: electric vehicle and electric

SPEAKER_01: bus bidirectional capabilities,

SPEAKER_01: advanced clean fleets,

SPEAKER_01: incentives supporting and

SPEAKER_01: standards supporting the

SPEAKER_01: adoption of these vehicles, and

SPEAKER_01: assembly bill 579 actually

SPEAKER_01: setting requirements for school

SPEAKER_01: buses to be fully electrified.

SPEAKER_01: So policy in addition to grid

SPEAKER_01: benefit and customer value is

SPEAKER_01: driving a significant amount of

SPEAKER_01: adoption of these technologies

SPEAKER_01: and giving us an early market

SPEAKER_01: that we can test and evaluate

SPEAKER_01: these technologies to figure out

SPEAKER_01: what these long-term plans are

SPEAKER_01: and what the right scalable

SPEAKER_01: solutions should be.

Unknown: I want to dive into that

SPEAKER_01: potential conversation just a

SPEAKER_01: little bit because we often talk

SPEAKER_01: about load flexibility in terms

SPEAKER_01: of different types of DERs.

SPEAKER_01: What can your commercial battery

SPEAKER_01: do?

SPEAKER_01: What can your residential

SPEAKER_01: battery do?

SPEAKER_01: What can your thermostat do?

SPEAKER_01: And what happens with a lot of

SPEAKER_01: these devices is that they do

SPEAKER_01: start to saturate a little bit.

SPEAKER_01: There are houses that are good

SPEAKER_01: fits for different technologies.

SPEAKER_01: There are cost tradeoffs that a

SPEAKER_01: thermostat still needs to be a

SPEAKER_01: thermostat.

SPEAKER_01: One of the exciting things about

SPEAKER_01: an electric vehicle is that

SPEAKER_01: there's 1.2 million light duty

SPEAKER_01: vehicles roughly in the Sacramento

SPEAKER_01: region.

SPEAKER_01: Customers are converting those

SPEAKER_01: vehicles to electric.

SPEAKER_01: And as they get into 2030, 2035,

SPEAKER_01: 2040, those vehicles are going to

SPEAKER_01: be electric.

SPEAKER_01: This opportunity for capacity

SPEAKER_01: continues to grow independently

SPEAKER_01: of the baseline saturation.

SPEAKER_01: People still need to transport.

SPEAKER_01: People still need to drive.

SPEAKER_01: People still need to commute.

SPEAKER_01: And so we see continued growth.

SPEAKER_01: And as we get out closer to 2040,

SPEAKER_01: we see that vehicle-to-grid

SPEAKER_01: technology has the potential to be

SPEAKER_01: one of our highest capacity

SPEAKER_01: resources eclipsing both the

SPEAKER_01: residential battery and

SPEAKER_01: commercial battery market in terms

SPEAKER_01: of load flexibility solutions.

Unknown: So it really very much is a long

SPEAKER_01: term opportunity that we have the

SPEAKER_01: real opportunity to scale into

SPEAKER_01: today.

Unknown: And so I want to talk a little

SPEAKER_01: bit about the value proposition,

SPEAKER_01: because it's not just how can

SPEAKER_01: these batteries support the grid.

SPEAKER_01: It's customers that are buying

SPEAKER_01: these electric vehicles.

SPEAKER_01: And so it really starts with that

SPEAKER_01: customer value.

SPEAKER_01: It's based on the utility

SPEAKER_01: incentive programs, how we can

SPEAKER_01: improve the return on the

SPEAKER_01: investment for that vehicle by

SPEAKER_01: sharing that resource when the

SPEAKER_01: grid is strained and when we need

SPEAKER_01: it and helping the customer make

SPEAKER_01: that adoption.

SPEAKER_01: It's also that vehicle-to-home,

SPEAKER_01: V2H resiliency conversation, how

SPEAKER_01: they can provide that backup power

SPEAKER_01: for themselves.

SPEAKER_01: And then the last bullet here is

SPEAKER_01: energy management.

SPEAKER_01: I know that we talk a lot about

SPEAKER_01: battery programs and the battery

SPEAKER_01: on the wall being able to help

SPEAKER_01: maximize your solar self-

SPEAKER_01: consumption and your own energy

SPEAKER_01: usage.

SPEAKER_01: But the vehicle in your garage

SPEAKER_01: and the battery in that vehicle

SPEAKER_01: has the ability to provide many

SPEAKER_01: of those same services.

SPEAKER_01: It gives customers that energy

SPEAKER_01: independence, the ability to make

SPEAKER_01: their own choices, and it creates

SPEAKER_01: that value for them at the

SPEAKER_01: customer level.

SPEAKER_01: On the grid side, as we're talking

SPEAKER_01: about those utility programs and

SPEAKER_01: incentives, modeling how we

SPEAKER_01: translate that into actual bulk

SPEAKER_01: grid value, whether that's

SPEAKER_01: resource adequacy, whether that's

SPEAKER_01: optimizing how we operate in the

SPEAKER_01: wholesale energy market, our

SPEAKER_01: distribution system, thinking

SPEAKER_01: about how we can utilize

SPEAKER_01: distributed energy resources to

SPEAKER_01: avoid infrastructure upgrades or

SPEAKER_01: to minimize the impact on existing

SPEAKER_01: infrastructure and prevent having

SPEAKER_01: to build new infrastructure or

SPEAKER_01: limit the amount of new

SPEAKER_01: infrastructure that we have to

SPEAKER_01: build because we have a huge fleet

SPEAKER_01: of batteries that are available

SPEAKER_01: in the existing market that are

SPEAKER_01: being adopted for those other

SPEAKER_01: applications that are idle that

SPEAKER_01: can be shared.

SPEAKER_01: The conversation isn't without

SPEAKER_01: tradeoffs.

SPEAKER_01: When we're using a customer

SPEAKER_01: battery for grid applications,

Unknown: that average charge time is going

SPEAKER_01: to be longer.

SPEAKER_01: There will be a discharge on that

SPEAKER_01: battery.

SPEAKER_01: It will be a recharge if you're

SPEAKER_01: in this program that may exist in

SPEAKER_01: the future.

SPEAKER_01: You walk into your garage.

SPEAKER_01: If it was an unexpected departure,

SPEAKER_01: your battery might be at 75 percent

SPEAKER_01: instead of 100 percent where it

SPEAKER_01: would have otherwise been.

SPEAKER_01: So it's not necessarily a without

SPEAKER_01: tradeoff conversation.

SPEAKER_01: Vehicle location certainty.

SPEAKER_01: As we're talking about fleets and

SPEAKER_01: we're thinking about how we

SPEAKER_01: contract for capacity and how we

SPEAKER_01: make best use of those fleets, we

SPEAKER_01: need to know that those vehicles

SPEAKER_01: are going to be where we expect

SPEAKER_01: them to be and that they're going

SPEAKER_01: to have the level of charge that

SPEAKER_01: we expect them to have so that

SPEAKER_01: that value that they're providing

SPEAKER_01: to the grid is reliable.

SPEAKER_01: We can't have an unreliable

SPEAKER_01: resource that we're counting or

SPEAKER_01: utilizing as part of our overall

SPEAKER_01: reliability portfolio.

SPEAKER_01: And so that's a tradeoff that we

SPEAKER_01: have to figure out how to properly

SPEAKER_01: value with the customers and the

SPEAKER_01: fleet owners in that conversation.

SPEAKER_01: And then the bottom line here is

SPEAKER_01: the potential increase in battery

SPEAKER_01: degradation.

SPEAKER_01: No matter how we look at it,

SPEAKER_01: utilizing a battery for grid

SPEAKER_01: services will put additional

SPEAKER_01: cycles onto the battery system.

SPEAKER_01: It will increase that degradation.

SPEAKER_01: Now, most vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: applications, they're pretty slow

SPEAKER_01: charging and discharging relative

SPEAKER_01: to accelerating to get onto the

SPEAKER_01: on-ramp of your local freeway.

SPEAKER_01: And so it's friendly charging and

SPEAKER_01: discharging with respect to

SPEAKER_01: degradation, minimal impact.

SPEAKER_01: But it's nonzero.

SPEAKER_01: And while the automotive OEMs are

SPEAKER_01: working hard to model the

SPEAKER_01: warranties and to incorporate

SPEAKER_01: these provisions, it's not

SPEAKER_01: established science.

SPEAKER_01: It's not consistent across all the

SPEAKER_01: OEMs.

SPEAKER_01: And so from a utility standpoint,

SPEAKER_01: that becomes a tradeoff of

SPEAKER_01: balancing the customer's warranty

SPEAKER_01: and how they would like to use

SPEAKER_01: their electric vehicle against

SPEAKER_01: what the grid needs and what our

SPEAKER_01: programs are most interested in

SPEAKER_01: doing.

Unknown: And so with that, as we've looked

SPEAKER_01: at kind of where we start the

SPEAKER_01: conversation, a significant amount

SPEAKER_01: of our early research has focused

SPEAKER_01: on electric school buses as being

SPEAKER_01: our starting point for the

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: And so I wanted to share just a

SPEAKER_01: little bit of information as to

SPEAKER_01: why we look at school buses to

SPEAKER_01: help us with our early vehicle

SPEAKER_01: to grid evaluations.

SPEAKER_01: In Sacramento, there's about 800

SPEAKER_01: school buses spread out across our

SPEAKER_01: 13 school districts.

SPEAKER_01: And today, already, as of

SPEAKER_01: December 2025, 111 of those buses

SPEAKER_01: are already electrified.

SPEAKER_01: I saw that bullet on this slide

SPEAKER_01: and reviewed it and was just

SPEAKER_01: blown away.

SPEAKER_01: It was a really proud moment for

SPEAKER_01: the region to see just the sheer

SPEAKER_01: number of buses that are already

SPEAKER_01: electrified in Sacramento.

SPEAKER_01: And as many as 72 of those buses

SPEAKER_01: are already vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: capable.

SPEAKER_01: So it's a very, very exciting

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: The graph on the right side of

SPEAKER_01: the chart here actually shows a

SPEAKER_01: little bit of information about

SPEAKER_01: why school buses are a great

SPEAKER_01: conversation and opportunity for

SPEAKER_01: vehicle to grid.

SPEAKER_01: The yellow section, labeled depot,

SPEAKER_01: shows when the bus is at that

SPEAKER_01: depot, when it's plugged in, when

SPEAKER_01: it's idle.

SPEAKER_01: It may be charging during that

SPEAKER_01: window.

SPEAKER_01: It may be at a low state of charge

SPEAKER_01: if it just got back.

SPEAKER_01: It may be able to discharge

SPEAKER_01: during that window.

SPEAKER_01: It recharges during the middle of

SPEAKER_01: the day, most likely from solar.

SPEAKER_01: And then it discharges at the end

SPEAKER_01: of the day, 2 o'clock, 3 o'clock,

SPEAKER_01: 4 o'clock while it's taking

SPEAKER_01: students back to their homes

SPEAKER_01: after school.

SPEAKER_01: Returns to the depot and then

SPEAKER_01: begins to recharge.

SPEAKER_01: Any idle capacity that was in

SPEAKER_01: that battery pack can be

SPEAKER_01: available for V2G applications.

SPEAKER_01: When we have our highest peaks in

SPEAKER_01: California, oftentimes they're

SPEAKER_01: summer peaks.

SPEAKER_01: School doesn't tend to be in

SPEAKER_01: session in summer.

SPEAKER_01: Now, while we see peaks showing

SPEAKER_01: up later and later in the year,

SPEAKER_01: that does start to overlap a

SPEAKER_01: little bit, and so there are a

SPEAKER_01: lot of considerations there.

SPEAKER_01: But for a large part of the

SPEAKER_01: summer, a larger portion of this

SPEAKER_01: type of fleet can be available

SPEAKER_01: for vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: interactivity and services.

SPEAKER_01: And so it becomes a very exciting

SPEAKER_01: entry point for the conversation.

SPEAKER_01: But we need to make sure that

SPEAKER_01: we're thinking about not just

SPEAKER_01: there are 72 vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: enabled school buses in the

SPEAKER_01: region.

SPEAKER_01: We need to make sure that we're

SPEAKER_01: thinking about the full system

SPEAKER_01: of technologies and solutions

SPEAKER_01: and tradeoffs and priorities in

SPEAKER_01: order to get to a full,

SPEAKER_01: successful vehicle to grid

SPEAKER_01: solution.

SPEAKER_01: Having an enabled school bus is

SPEAKER_01: one piece of the puzzle.

SPEAKER_01: To go with that school bus, you

Unknown: have to have a bidirectional

SPEAKER_01: charger that can be properly

SPEAKER_01: interconnected to the grid that

SPEAKER_01: interfaces with that bus that

SPEAKER_01: can provide these bidirectional

SPEAKER_01: charging services.

SPEAKER_01: These are new.

SPEAKER_01: The companies that are

SPEAKER_01: developing these are often

SPEAKER_01: emerging.

SPEAKER_01: Actually, one of the companies

SPEAKER_01: that was providing these

SPEAKER_01: chargers with one of our early

SPEAKER_01: school bus pilots went through a

SPEAKER_01: merger and acquisition, and the

SPEAKER_01: company chose to change

SPEAKER_01: direction and priority on their

SPEAKER_01: V2G pathways.

SPEAKER_01: And so we have a pilot that was

SPEAKER_01: not able to fulfill its full

SPEAKER_01: vehicle to grid opportunity.

SPEAKER_01: That's part of learning.

SPEAKER_01: That's part of this journey.

SPEAKER_01: It's part of why we're doing this

SPEAKER_01: early research and development,

SPEAKER_01: but it also makes sure that we're

SPEAKER_01: being as thoughtful as we can be

SPEAKER_01: about the whole system, not just

SPEAKER_01: the individual components.

SPEAKER_01: And in addition to that

SPEAKER_01: bidirectional charging and those

SPEAKER_01: enabled buses, we have to have

SPEAKER_01: charging service providers and

SPEAKER_01: aggregators.

SPEAKER_01: We're not talking about

SPEAKER_01: individual interfaces to

SPEAKER_01: individual buses or individual

SPEAKER_01: chargers at the utility and

SPEAKER_01: thinking about how we operate

SPEAKER_01: these as grid resources.

SPEAKER_01: We need to think about fleets of

SPEAKER_01: resources, fleets of buses,

SPEAKER_01: hundreds of buses, thousands of

SPEAKER_01: light-duty vehicles, tens of

SPEAKER_01: thousands of light-duty vehicles,

SPEAKER_01: maybe more, aggregated together

SPEAKER_01: to get this footprint that we're

SPEAKER_01: talking about that has

SPEAKER_01: communication pathway

SPEAKER_01: considerations, it has costs, it

SPEAKER_01: has technology complications, and

SPEAKER_01: all of that has to be established,

SPEAKER_01: it has to be in place, it has to

SPEAKER_01: be reliable.

SPEAKER_01: So we're early in the

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: The potential is very real, and

SPEAKER_01: we're in a spot where these

SPEAKER_01: early pilots are defining the

SPEAKER_01: foundation for what these longer

SPEAKER_01: term programs will be.

Unknown: In addition, schools don't buy

SPEAKER_01: buses because they're thinking

SPEAKER_01: about, I want a V2G resource.

SPEAKER_01: Schools are investing in buses

SPEAKER_01: because they have an obligation

SPEAKER_01: for student transportation.

SPEAKER_01: They have time of use and energy

SPEAKER_01: optimization considerations so

SPEAKER_01: that they can lower their

SPEAKER_01: overall costs, including

SPEAKER_01: operation and maintenance of the

SPEAKER_01: vehicles.

SPEAKER_01: They also have their own

SPEAKER_01: environmental initiatives.

SPEAKER_01: When a school bus is

SPEAKER_01: electrified, it's not just the

SPEAKER_01: community around that school that

SPEAKER_01: benefits or the community that

SPEAKER_01: that bus drives through.

SPEAKER_01: It's the kids that are actually

SPEAKER_01: driving on that bus that benefit

SPEAKER_01: from that air quality.

SPEAKER_01: And so it's in line with their

SPEAKER_01: initiative, but those benefits

SPEAKER_01: aren't necessarily tied to V2G.

SPEAKER_01: They're tied to the electric bus.

SPEAKER_01: For V2G, we need the whole

SPEAKER_01: system.

Unknown: On the smud side, we want these

SPEAKER_01: solutions to provide grid

SPEAKER_01: resiliency.

SPEAKER_01: We want to be able to use them

SPEAKER_01: for resource optimization, local

SPEAKER_01: infrastructure support, and

SPEAKER_01: bottom line, we want these to be

SPEAKER_01: part of our overall

SPEAKER_01: decarbonization initiative

SPEAKER_01: and vision.

Unknown: Jumping back a little bit to the

SPEAKER_01: light duty side of the

SPEAKER_01: conversation, we talked a little

SPEAKER_01: bit about what a pilot might

SPEAKER_01: look like and what a number of

SPEAKER_01: vehicles could look like.

SPEAKER_01: On the screen here, we've got a

SPEAKER_01: selection or a snapshot of a

SPEAKER_01: hundred electric vehicles.

SPEAKER_01: And in a simulated demand

SPEAKER_01: response event, and so this was

SPEAKER_01: using actual charging profiles

SPEAKER_01: and vehicle models for this

SPEAKER_01: simulation, and the demand

SPEAKER_01: response event kind of looking

SPEAKER_01: at our 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. on peak

SPEAKER_01: window, what you'll see is a

SPEAKER_01: hundred vehicles.

SPEAKER_01: Of those hundred vehicles, the

SPEAKER_01: vehicles that are orange are

SPEAKER_01: actively charging when this event

SPEAKER_01: was called.

SPEAKER_01: The vehicles that are blue are

SPEAKER_01: plugged in but have finished

SPEAKER_01: charging.

Unknown: And then the vehicles in gray

SPEAKER_01: are enrolled in a program but

SPEAKER_01: not at home during those demand

SPEAKER_01: response hours.

SPEAKER_01: Maybe the event got called at

SPEAKER_01: 5 o'clock and a significant

SPEAKER_01: number of individuals are still

SPEAKER_01: commuting home.

Unknown: And so when we think about what

SPEAKER_01: that means, those orange

SPEAKER_01: vehicles that are charging, if

SPEAKER_01: we're just doing managed

SPEAKER_01: charging, so car charging at

SPEAKER_01: full power, managed charging can

SPEAKER_01: turn that charger off or turn

SPEAKER_01: that charger back on.

SPEAKER_01: We can go all the way from 100

SPEAKER_01: percent down to zero and back

SPEAKER_01: up.

Unknown: With a typical EV charger, that

SPEAKER_01: means 7 kilowatts down to zero

SPEAKER_01: or back up to 7.

SPEAKER_01: We have 7 kilowatts of control.

Unknown: From a grid export or a vehicle

SPEAKER_01: to grid standpoint, we can go

SPEAKER_01: from that 7 kilowatts down to

SPEAKER_01: zero all the way down to

SPEAKER_01: negative 7 kilowatts.

SPEAKER_01: Now we have 14 kilowatts of

SPEAKER_01: load flexibility.

SPEAKER_01: We have twice the capacity from

SPEAKER_01: that same vehicle because of

SPEAKER_01: vehicle to grid compared to

SPEAKER_01: vehicle, compared to V1G or just

SPEAKER_01: managed charging.

SPEAKER_01: Additionally, those blue cars

SPEAKER_01: that you see, if we're talking

SPEAKER_01: about a managed charging

SPEAKER_01: solution, they're not consuming

SPEAKER_01: 7 kilowatts.

SPEAKER_01: They can't go from 7 down to

SPEAKER_01: zero.

SPEAKER_01: They're already at zero.

SPEAKER_01: So we don't actually have any

SPEAKER_01: new capacity or load

SPEAKER_01: flexibility with those vehicles

SPEAKER_01: if all that we're doing is

SPEAKER_01: managed charging.

SPEAKER_01: In a V2G scenario, a car that's

SPEAKER_01: already at 100 percent charge is

SPEAKER_01: a great resource because it

SPEAKER_01: means that there's the maximum

SPEAKER_01: amount of capacity for a

SPEAKER_01: discharge to support that

SPEAKER_01: event, and we can still provide

SPEAKER_01: that full 7 kilowatts of

SPEAKER_01: support.

SPEAKER_01: And then the gray vehicles are

SPEAKER_01: not enrolled, so it's no

SPEAKER_01: participation in either scenario.

SPEAKER_01: So along the bottom here, and

SPEAKER_01: the engineer in me is very

SPEAKER_01: pleased with the fact that

SPEAKER_01: there's math on the slide.

SPEAKER_01: I apologize.

SPEAKER_01: If we look at a selection of

SPEAKER_01: five of these vehicles where

SPEAKER_01: one of them is charging, one of

SPEAKER_01: them is fully charged, and three

SPEAKER_01: of them aren't home yet, if we

SPEAKER_01: have a V1G or a managed

SPEAKER_01: charging solution, we're going

SPEAKER_01: to be able to create 1.4

SPEAKER_01: kilowatts of load flexibility

SPEAKER_01: per electric vehicle.

SPEAKER_01: When we're thinking about that

Unknown: in terms of vehicle to grid and

SPEAKER_01: the ability to export and

SPEAKER_01: discharge that battery actively,

SPEAKER_01: we're able to get 4.2 kilowatts

SPEAKER_01: per electric vehicle, about three

SPEAKER_01: times the impact because we have

SPEAKER_01: that bidirectional capability.

SPEAKER_01: Now, in order to have that

SPEAKER_01: bidirectional capability, we have

SPEAKER_01: to have the right charger.

SPEAKER_01: We have to have the

SPEAKER_01: communications.

SPEAKER_01: We have to have the vehicle

SPEAKER_01: that's capable of doing it.

SPEAKER_01: It's not a hard-working

SPEAKER_01: thing.

SPEAKER_01: It's not a all-the-vehicles-turn-on-in-can-do-that-tomorrow.

SPEAKER_01: The exciting thing for me in this

SPEAKER_01: particular chart is that it

SPEAKER_01: represents the power of large

SPEAKER_01: numbers and the power of a fleet.

SPEAKER_01: And when we talk about 1.2 million

SPEAKER_01: light-duty electric vehicles, it

SPEAKER_01: speaks to the importance of the

SPEAKER_01: work that we're doing in our

SPEAKER_01: managed charging programs today

SPEAKER_01: and the pilots that we have

SPEAKER_01: running.

SPEAKER_01: It speaks to the importance of

SPEAKER_01: building the proper foundation

SPEAKER_01: for vehicle to grid technology,

SPEAKER_01: and it speaks to the importance

SPEAKER_01: of having a solution that

SPEAKER_01: enables all of these types of

SPEAKER_01: vehicles and charging structures

SPEAKER_01: to contribute to the overall

SPEAKER_01: mission in a reliable way that

SPEAKER_01: translates to meaningful grid

SPEAKER_01: value and helps us maintain

SPEAKER_01: affordability as we

SPEAKER_01: decarbonize the region and the

SPEAKER_01: community.

Unknown: Bottom line, the electric

SPEAKER_01: vehicles, the charger, the

SPEAKER_01: pathways all have to be there,

SPEAKER_01: and the alignment of how these

SPEAKER_01: systems are being used has to

SPEAKER_01: be in place.

SPEAKER_01: Today, we've been looking at

SPEAKER_01: research and working with OEMs

SPEAKER_01: and doing device-level

SPEAKER_01: evaluations.

SPEAKER_01: We've done bidirectional

SPEAKER_01: charging pilots in our parking

SPEAKER_01: lot here at our headquarter

SPEAKER_01: facility.

SPEAKER_01: We've worked with the local

SPEAKER_01: school districts on modeling

SPEAKER_01: their vehicle to grid and managed

SPEAKER_01: charging programs.

SPEAKER_01: As we look forward, we are

SPEAKER_01: identifying and expanding our

SPEAKER_01: field-testing opportunities.

SPEAKER_01: We're looking at small-scale

SPEAKER_01: school bus demonstrations.

SPEAKER_01: I say small-scale here because

SPEAKER_01: it's really important that we get

SPEAKER_01: our understanding of the

SPEAKER_01: technology right, our

SPEAKER_01: incentives aligned, and our

SPEAKER_01: strategy is correct before we

SPEAKER_01: send an investment signal to the

SPEAKER_01: schools to lean into a particular

SPEAKER_01: piece of technology through

SPEAKER_01: incentives.

SPEAKER_01: We want to make sure that the

SPEAKER_01: investments that are being made

SPEAKER_01: in this space are durable and

SPEAKER_01: create long-term value.

SPEAKER_01: And then as we move out past

SPEAKER_01: this 2028 horizon, we're excited

SPEAKER_01: to look towards these scaled

SPEAKER_01: pilots.

SPEAKER_01: We're excited to look towards

SPEAKER_01: full program development and

SPEAKER_01: really unleashing the value that

SPEAKER_01: we see in that capacity chart,

SPEAKER_01: but doing that in a way that is

SPEAKER_01: built on proven technology and

SPEAKER_01: highly reliable solutions.

SPEAKER_01: And that's where I'm excited to

SPEAKER_01: see this technology go and grow.

Unknown: Wonderful.

SPEAKER_06: Does anybody have any questions

SPEAKER_06: for James?

SPEAKER_06: Yes, go right in.

Unknown: So looking at this chart, would

SPEAKER_08: it be safe to say that everything

SPEAKER_08: is going to be lined up by 2029,

Unknown: that we'll be doing this here in

SPEAKER_08: SMUD's territory?

SPEAKER_01: That's in line with my

SPEAKER_01: expectation.

SPEAKER_01: However, I do want to caveat

SPEAKER_01: that with the industry and

SPEAKER_01: especially the automotive

SPEAKER_01: industry is largely influenced by

SPEAKER_01: federal policy and state policy,

SPEAKER_01: and so there's a lot of things

SPEAKER_01: that have to happen to make this

SPEAKER_01: work, and a lot of those things

SPEAKER_01: are larger than our ability to

SPEAKER_01: directly influence, acknowledging

SPEAKER_01: that we do swing outside our

SPEAKER_01: weight class on a lot of these

SPEAKER_01: topics and that we fiercely

SPEAKER_01: advocate for the things that we

SPEAKER_01: think create the value that we're

SPEAKER_01: looking for.

SPEAKER_08: Well, I just want to say thank

SPEAKER_08: you for a very interesting

SPEAKER_08: presentation.

Unknown: Anybody else?

SPEAKER_08: Sure.

Unknown: James, come.

SPEAKER_02: No, you're not going to get

SPEAKER_02: away.

SPEAKER_02: You have to talk in the

SPEAKER_06: microphone.

SPEAKER_06: A couple of thoughts and things.

SPEAKER_02: One, I would encourage staff to

SPEAKER_02: explore the aspects of behavioral

SPEAKER_02: psychology and being creative

SPEAKER_02: with these programs.

SPEAKER_02: We're saying, okay, we're going

SPEAKER_02: to give them the XX cents per

SPEAKER_02: kilowatt hour that they are in.

SPEAKER_02: I think you had a demand charge

SPEAKER_02: you're making it complicated,

SPEAKER_02: right?

SPEAKER_02: Or you can say, okay, we're

SPEAKER_02: going to give you X number of

SPEAKER_02: tokens and for every time your

SPEAKER_02: cart is plugged in during the

SPEAKER_02: summer months.

SPEAKER_02: We may not pull it whatsoever,

SPEAKER_02: but we're going to give you

SPEAKER_02: something.

SPEAKER_02: When it's plugged in and you

SPEAKER_02: have pick your poison, 70%

SPEAKER_02: charge already on it, right?

SPEAKER_02: And then you can exchange it for,

SPEAKER_02: okay, I'm going to pay for my

SPEAKER_02: green energy this month or maybe

SPEAKER_02: we'll give them something for

SPEAKER_02: the energy store or even

SPEAKER_02: something that's, you know,

SPEAKER_02: smaller, we're going to give you

SPEAKER_02: a special sticker when you get

SPEAKER_02: up to a number.

SPEAKER_02: There's all kinds of creative

SPEAKER_02: ideas.

SPEAKER_02: Humans don't necessarily value

SPEAKER_02: the dollar in the same way.

SPEAKER_02: When you look at that behavior,

SPEAKER_02: it's just, anyway, I'm sort of

SPEAKER_02: manual, but something to think

SPEAKER_02: about as you're developing

SPEAKER_02: programs is how to gamify it.

SPEAKER_02: And the classic restaurant

SPEAKER_02: example, right, that we've talked

SPEAKER_02: about in the past and giving,

SPEAKER_02: do you want to roll the dice

SPEAKER_02: for a free meal or do you want

SPEAKER_02: a 15% discount off your meal,

SPEAKER_02: you know, and economically end

SPEAKER_02: at the same place, but it's a

SPEAKER_02: much different behavioral

SPEAKER_02: psychology.

SPEAKER_02: One of the things that didn't

SPEAKER_02: get a real clear view on, so

SPEAKER_02: here's a real question, but one

SPEAKER_02: thing I didn't hear real

SPEAKER_02: clearly tonight, though, is like

Unknown: it sounds like we have, we've

SPEAKER_02: done some pilots at SMUT on

SPEAKER_02: actual back feeding into our

SPEAKER_02: grid, right?

SPEAKER_02: And so for me, I think the

SPEAKER_02: biggest question is like, have

SPEAKER_02: we fully integrated through a

SPEAKER_02: communications protocol, and I

SPEAKER_02: know there's a whole slew of

SPEAKER_02: different protocols out there to

SPEAKER_02: enable it, like to actually hook

SPEAKER_02: into our Derm system, right?

SPEAKER_02: And so when these capable

SPEAKER_02: chargers, which it seems that

SPEAKER_02: there are some, but it's still

SPEAKER_02: really not clear how many

SPEAKER_02: there really are, are these

SPEAKER_02: chargers going to have to go

SPEAKER_02: through a grid interconnection

SPEAKER_02: process, right, or some rule to

SPEAKER_02: 21 process, are they more like

SPEAKER_02: a solar inverter?

SPEAKER_02: And so this is what I think is

SPEAKER_02: an aspect, and we really thought

SPEAKER_02: that through at this point and

SPEAKER_02: piloted, like, or have we piloted

SPEAKER_02: it yet, right?

SPEAKER_02: So working with our

Unknown: interconnection process was

SPEAKER_01: actually a huge component and one

SPEAKER_01: of the value add efforts

SPEAKER_01: associated with our Twin Rivers

SPEAKER_01: V2G bus pilot, and so we are

SPEAKER_01: working with our interconnection

SPEAKER_01: process to accommodate processes

SPEAKER_01: and procedures for how we bring

SPEAKER_01: these devices online.

SPEAKER_01: So the answer to that is yes.

SPEAKER_01: The pilot that we did in our

SPEAKER_01: parking lot here was actually

SPEAKER_01: done, we were one of the first

SPEAKER_01: to do this type of pilot, it was

SPEAKER_01: done with a Chadmo charge

SPEAKER_01: connector, so the previous

SPEAKER_01: generation, it was one of the

SPEAKER_01: earliest that was actually fully

SPEAKER_01: provisioned for bi-directional.

SPEAKER_01: We used a number of the Nissan

SPEAKER_01: Leafs in our existing fleet to

SPEAKER_01: support that pilot.

SPEAKER_01: Chadmo is no longer a widely

SPEAKER_01: available standard bi-automotive

SPEAKER_01: OEMs or chargers, so we were

SPEAKER_01: not one to one, but it did

SPEAKER_01: provide us the opportunity to do

SPEAKER_01: that modeling, understand the

SPEAKER_01: impact on the electric vehicle

SPEAKER_01: state of charge.

SPEAKER_01: But it was because it was with

SPEAKER_01: that previous generation of

SPEAKER_01: technology that we were able to

SPEAKER_01: do that so early and get those

SPEAKER_01: learnings and our initiative

SPEAKER_01: started so early.

SPEAKER_01: I guess what's sort of what

SPEAKER_02: we're actually going to see, I

Unknown: was just doing a deep dive into

SPEAKER_02: balcony, some balcony solar

SPEAKER_02: policy, and it's the same, some

SPEAKER_02: basic ideas that we're letting

SPEAKER_02: people plug into a socket in

SPEAKER_02: their wall, and the UL working

SPEAKER_02: group put out a report in the

SPEAKER_02: video very recently, sort of

SPEAKER_02: running through a whole slew of

SPEAKER_02: problems.

SPEAKER_02: So I think it still comes back

SPEAKER_02: to how do you interconnect

Unknown: economically and as efficiently

SPEAKER_02: as possible, right?

SPEAKER_02: You probably don't have the

SPEAKER_02: luxury of spending several

SPEAKER_02: thousand dollars for each house

SPEAKER_02: that you get VGI ready.

SPEAKER_02: But it would be interesting,

SPEAKER_02: you guys can go play with the

SPEAKER_02: numbers and then do that homework,

SPEAKER_02: too.

SPEAKER_02: And similarly to the way that we

SPEAKER_01: manage solar inverters, the

SPEAKER_01: direction from the CEC and the

SPEAKER_01: direction from the state more

SPEAKER_01: largely on the topic is going to

SPEAKER_01: be a key contributor to how we

SPEAKER_01: manage those processes.

SPEAKER_01: It's not the type of problem or

SPEAKER_01: technology that we're going to be

SPEAKER_01: able to kind of independently move

SPEAKER_01: forward.

SPEAKER_01: It needs to be part of the

SPEAKER_01: larger industry coalition.

Unknown: Thank you.

SPEAKER_03: So I see that there is interest

SPEAKER_03: in movement actually from the

SPEAKER_03: auto manufacturers in being able

SPEAKER_03: to provide this type of

SPEAKER_03: technology, but I also hear that

SPEAKER_03: there's reluctance on their part

SPEAKER_03: because of the, you know, it sort

SPEAKER_03: of changes what they're selling

SPEAKER_03: and that hasn't been overcome

SPEAKER_03: yet.

SPEAKER_03: My understanding is that there's

SPEAKER_03: still a lot of reluctance to

SPEAKER_03: fully move in that direction

SPEAKER_03: because of the concerns about how

SPEAKER_03: does this affect our warranty and

SPEAKER_03: the lifetime of the lifespan of

SPEAKER_03: the car and all that.

SPEAKER_03: So could you talk about that?

SPEAKER_01: So the warranty is definitely a

SPEAKER_01: significant barrier, especially

SPEAKER_01: as the different automotive OEMs

SPEAKER_01: have different confidence in

SPEAKER_01: their battery systems.

SPEAKER_01: Just speaking a little bit from

SPEAKER_01: personal experience, my first

SPEAKER_01: electric vehicle was a Nissan

SPEAKER_01: Leaf and I think when I traded it

SPEAKER_01: in it had about 24 miles of range

SPEAKER_01: on it.

SPEAKER_01: More recently now I drive a truck

SPEAKER_01: and I think over 40,000 miles it

SPEAKER_01: still charges to the same range

SPEAKER_01: that it did the day that I bought

SPEAKER_01: it and I'm over the moon about it.

SPEAKER_01: And so I think that the quality

SPEAKER_01: of battery and the degradation

SPEAKER_01: that happens is going to vary by

SPEAKER_01: OEM and that's going to influence

SPEAKER_01: this warranty conversation.

SPEAKER_01: I also think that when we're

SPEAKER_01: talking about the dollars and the

SPEAKER_01: scale of the conversation that we

SPEAKER_01: saw and the billions of dollars

SPEAKER_01: that are in the dialogue here,

SPEAKER_01: that a big part of the

SPEAKER_01: conversation is also who's getting

SPEAKER_01: paid for these services.

SPEAKER_01: Are these dollars that the

SPEAKER_01: utility is paying and if the

SPEAKER_01: utility is paying them, are we

SPEAKER_01: paying them to the end customer

SPEAKER_01: that owns the car in the garage?

SPEAKER_01: Are we paying it to the aggregator

SPEAKER_01: that owns the car in the garage?

SPEAKER_01: Are we paying the dispatch

SPEAKER_01: services?

SPEAKER_01: Are we paying it to the

SPEAKER_01: automotive OEM because their

SPEAKER_01: vehicle is enabling this service?

SPEAKER_01: Are we paying it to the EVSE,

SPEAKER_01: charge equipment manufacturer,

SPEAKER_01: because their technology is the

SPEAKER_01: actual point of interconnection to

SPEAKER_01: the grid.

SPEAKER_01: And so it's not clear what that

SPEAKER_01: overall business model is for the

SPEAKER_01: industry yet and who gets paid is

SPEAKER_01: a question that needs to be

SPEAKER_01: answered and needs to be supported

SPEAKER_01: and provide positive business

SPEAKER_01: models for everyone involved,

SPEAKER_01: and the customer.

SPEAKER_01: And so that's a big open

SPEAKER_01: question that a lot of the early

SPEAKER_01: pilots and the work that we saw

SPEAKER_01: these large incentives going out

SPEAKER_01: for are really looking to try and

SPEAKER_01: answer is how do we make sure

SPEAKER_01: that we're creating a solution

SPEAKER_01: that is not just sustainable for

SPEAKER_01: the businesses because we have to

SPEAKER_01: have reliable technology but

SPEAKER_01: improves affordability for the

SPEAKER_01: participating customers and just

SPEAKER_01: as important improves

SPEAKER_01: affordability for all customers.

Unknown: James, maybe this is a question

SPEAKER_04: for our previous presenter.

SPEAKER_04: I'm not sure.

Unknown: Where is state policy on this?

SPEAKER_04: We know the federal government is

SPEAKER_04: not going to be helpful on this

SPEAKER_04: for at least a few more years.

SPEAKER_04: Does state policy get this?

SPEAKER_04: Are they actively doing things to

SPEAKER_04: make vehicle to grid integration

SPEAKER_04: easier, better, faster, smarter,

SPEAKER_04: or are they just kind of

SPEAKER_04: agnostic about it?

SPEAKER_04: What's the situation?

SPEAKER_04: They are very much on board with

SPEAKER_01: this and supportive.

SPEAKER_01: The recent study by the CEC

SPEAKER_01: identified massive potential and

SPEAKER_01: strong support for the

SPEAKER_01: conversation.

SPEAKER_01: They are also doing a lot of work

SPEAKER_01: on identifying qualified and

SPEAKER_01: approved bidirectional EV

SPEAKER_01: chargers and following similar

SPEAKER_01: processes to what they do for

SPEAKER_01: their solar interconnection

SPEAKER_01: process.

SPEAKER_01: So I would say that the state and

SPEAKER_01: state policy is in strong

SPEAKER_01: alignment with the direction that

SPEAKER_01: this technology is going.

Unknown: And CEC, current CEC commissioner

SPEAKER_06: was the senator.

SPEAKER_06: She actually introduced a bill to

SPEAKER_06: I think it was require all

SPEAKER_06: electric vehicles be bidirectional

SPEAKER_06: by certain year.

SPEAKER_06: It failed.

SPEAKER_06: But these conversations have been

SPEAKER_06: ongoing for several years.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah.

SPEAKER_06: Everybody else?

Unknown: Okay.

Unknown: Then I am going to move.

SPEAKER_06: Oh, no, you're going to stay

SPEAKER_06: there, I think, because I'm

SPEAKER_06: suspecting that you might be

SPEAKER_06: needed again.

SPEAKER_06: I have a couple of questions

SPEAKER_06: from the board.

SPEAKER_06: I have received a card from John

SPEAKER_06: Weber who would like to comment

SPEAKER_06: on this item.

SPEAKER_06: So we'll go ahead and turn it

SPEAKER_06: over to you, Mr. Weber.

Unknown: Good evening, Chairwoman, board

SPEAKER_07: of directors and committee

SPEAKER_07: members.

SPEAKER_07: Thanks for bringing this on the

SPEAKER_07: agenda.

SPEAKER_07: I really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_07: Thanks to both of the presenters.

SPEAKER_07: They were excellent.

SPEAKER_07: I did have a handout.

SPEAKER_07: I had 15 copies.

SPEAKER_07: I see there are 16 people.

SPEAKER_07: So one person might not get the

SPEAKER_07: handout.

SPEAKER_07: Is it this one?

SPEAKER_07: So there it is.

SPEAKER_07: Yep.

SPEAKER_07: So you could hand that out,

SPEAKER_07: please.

SPEAKER_07: And what I'd like to say is that

SPEAKER_07: at least one bi-directional

SPEAKER_07: charging company, SIG Energy, has

SPEAKER_07: found a way to communicate with

SPEAKER_07: pretty much every electric vehicle

SPEAKER_07: made that has DC fast charging.

SPEAKER_07: They do it through the DC way.

SPEAKER_07: And so that handout will show you

SPEAKER_07: a list of the vehicles that it

SPEAKER_07: but I would say probably 75% of

SPEAKER_07: the 80% of the vehicles on the

SPEAKER_07: road and Sacramento can do

Unknown: bi-directional charging with this

SPEAKER_07: charger.

SPEAKER_07: So that's a positive thing.

SPEAKER_07: So as long as you have DC fast

SPEAKER_07: charging, they could connect with

SPEAKER_07: their software.

SPEAKER_07: The ones on the list that I

SPEAKER_07: provided, those have been all

SPEAKER_07: tested in the United States.

SPEAKER_07: And they will go with any

SPEAKER_07: different model year.

SPEAKER_07: It doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_07: So that's a real positive point.

SPEAKER_07: And another point I saw a couple

SPEAKER_07: people ask was about battery

SPEAKER_07: degradation.

SPEAKER_07: A few years ago, the Idaho

SPEAKER_07: National Laboratory did

SPEAKER_07: better radiation studies on

Unknown: bi-directional charging.

SPEAKER_07: And it was very favorable in some

SPEAKER_07: cases depending on what they did

SPEAKER_07: that the life of the battery was

SPEAKER_07: actually longer.

SPEAKER_07: So because of the way the

SPEAKER_07: charging was versus just sitting

SPEAKER_07: there.

SPEAKER_07: So I think those would be very

SPEAKER_07: easy to overcome.

SPEAKER_07: And thanks again for the whole

SPEAKER_07: committee and for the presenters.

SPEAKER_07: And hopefully everybody gets that

SPEAKER_07: handout.

SPEAKER_07: And I can also put in written

SPEAKER_07: comment when I get home tonight

SPEAKER_07: a link to that handout.

SPEAKER_07: So, John, I just want to make

SPEAKER_06: sure I understand.

SPEAKER_06: Because it's cut off on this

SPEAKER_06: side.

SPEAKER_07: It is, yeah.

SPEAKER_07: The copy store cut off both

SPEAKER_07: sides.

SPEAKER_07: So the left side has a brand

SPEAKER_07: name.

SPEAKER_07: The first one is Volvo.

SPEAKER_07: Most of the people know the

SPEAKER_07: other ones.

SPEAKER_07: I don't have a copy because I

SPEAKER_07: gave them all away.

SPEAKER_07: On the right-hand side it says

SPEAKER_07: United States.

SPEAKER_07: I searched just the ones that

SPEAKER_07: have been tested in the U.S. and

SPEAKER_07: are working.

SPEAKER_07: So even like the most popular

SPEAKER_07: models here, the Tesla Model 3

SPEAKER_07: and Model Y both work.

SPEAKER_07: So, and they weren't on the list

SPEAKER_07: of the presentation.

SPEAKER_07: That's why I shared that.

SPEAKER_07: So you're saying that there's a

SPEAKER_06: charger that can basically work

SPEAKER_06: with any of the vehicles?

SPEAKER_06: Pretty much any vehicle that has

SPEAKER_07: DC fast charging.

SPEAKER_07: Because they have a logarithm

SPEAKER_07: that works through the DC port.

SPEAKER_07: And, yeah, so it's not just like

SPEAKER_07: a few thousand vehicles.

SPEAKER_07: It's probably like 50,000 plus

SPEAKER_07: vehicles.

SPEAKER_07: Okay.

Unknown: Might you share what you know on

SPEAKER_06: this, Jay?

Unknown: Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01: So the way that DC fast charging

SPEAKER_01: works is that it's through J1772

SPEAKER_01: and it uses a CAN communication

SPEAKER_01: bus to provide control signals so

SPEAKER_01: that the vehicle can monitor the

SPEAKER_01: speed of charging that's going in

SPEAKER_01: and out of the vehicle.

SPEAKER_01: And so what a number of charging

SPEAKER_01: companies are looking to do is to

SPEAKER_01: figure out how they can inject

SPEAKER_01: their signal into that to allow

SPEAKER_01: the vehicle to accept a negative

SPEAKER_01: charge rate instead of a positive

SPEAKER_01: charge rate.

SPEAKER_01: So the vehicle thinks that it's

SPEAKER_01: being charged when in reality the

SPEAKER_01: charger is actually pulling

SPEAKER_01: energy out of the battery pack.

SPEAKER_01: I'm not particularly familiar

SPEAKER_01: with this individual piece of

SPEAKER_01: technology.

SPEAKER_01: And while it's exciting, it is an

SPEAKER_01: area that is not fully supported

SPEAKER_01: by automotive OEMs.

SPEAKER_01: It does have a lot of warranty

SPEAKER_01: voiding issues.

SPEAKER_01: And so from a feasibility

SPEAKER_01: standpoint and a technical

SPEAKER_01: potential standpoint, it's an

SPEAKER_01: exciting conversation.

SPEAKER_01: But it's one that often would

SPEAKER_01: require customers to actually

SPEAKER_01: directly void the warranty on

SPEAKER_01: their battery in order to engage

SPEAKER_01: with this type of charger.

SPEAKER_01: So it's not one that we would

SPEAKER_01: look at for a standard program

SPEAKER_01: offering short of having full

SPEAKER_01: warranty support and making sure

SPEAKER_01: that we weren't doing anything

SPEAKER_01: that was going to compromise the

SPEAKER_01: customer's value in their

SPEAKER_01: vehicle.

SPEAKER_06: Still so interesting, though.

SPEAKER_06: I hadn't heard of this.

SPEAKER_06: Thank you, John.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I think you'll see more of

SPEAKER_07: it.

SPEAKER_07: And they're working with the OEMs

SPEAKER_07: currently, these chargers.

SPEAKER_07: Fascinating.

SPEAKER_07: So I think it'll open it up to

SPEAKER_07: everything with DC fast charging.

SPEAKER_07: Wow.

SPEAKER_07: Thank you.

SPEAKER_07: Appreciate the comments.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah.

Unknown: One more thing, James.

SPEAKER_02: I was sort of just thinking,

SPEAKER_02: right, have we given any thought

SPEAKER_02: or contemplated incentives for

SPEAKER_02: these chargers that are grid

SPEAKER_02: intertide capable?

SPEAKER_02: And if we have given any thought

SPEAKER_02: to how that could be built into

SPEAKER_02: the existing BPP virtual power

SPEAKER_02: program as it's finally gaining

SPEAKER_02: traction, we're putting out a

SPEAKER_02: pretty good sized incentive for

SPEAKER_02: that.

SPEAKER_02: But it's the same.

SPEAKER_02: It has that interconnection in

Unknown: there already.

SPEAKER_02: So it would be great to think.

SPEAKER_02: It seems like there's a

SPEAKER_02: potential sort of opening there

SPEAKER_02: that you could potentially build

SPEAKER_02: on.

SPEAKER_02: And that's a core component of

SPEAKER_01: the research and modeling that

SPEAKER_01: we're doing today is figuring out

SPEAKER_01: what the right level for those

SPEAKER_01: types of incentives are.

SPEAKER_01: We do a lot of work to try and be

SPEAKER_01: almost kilowatt agnostic in terms

SPEAKER_01: of the DER technology.

SPEAKER_01: If it meets the same level of

SPEAKER_01: performance and reliability

SPEAKER_01: requirements, we want to be

SPEAKER_01: paying it the same amount.

SPEAKER_01: So as we're talking about what a

SPEAKER_01: V2G program would look like

SPEAKER_01: versus what a battery on the wall

SPEAKER_01: program would look like, those

SPEAKER_01: numbers start side by side.

SPEAKER_01: We may derate the V2G

SPEAKER_01: conversation because we don't

SPEAKER_01: know that that vehicle is going

SPEAKER_01: to be there.

SPEAKER_01: But we calculate those numbers

SPEAKER_01: being thoughtful of each other,

SPEAKER_01: not independently of each other.

Unknown: Okay.

Unknown: Well, let's see.

SPEAKER_06: We will check to see if we have

SPEAKER_06: any public comments for items

SPEAKER_06: that are any other virtual

SPEAKER_06: attendee comments.

SPEAKER_06: No, we do not.

SPEAKER_06: Or any public comments for items

SPEAKER_06: not on the agenda?

Unknown: No.

Unknown: Okay.

Unknown: I don't see any.

Unknown: Then let's see.

Unknown: I think the written comments

SPEAKER_06: received, and I want to thank

SPEAKER_06: you, James and Zach, very much

SPEAKER_06: for this.

SPEAKER_06: It was a very interesting

SPEAKER_06: conversation.

SPEAKER_06: The written comments received

SPEAKER_06: on items not on the agenda will

SPEAKER_06: be included in the record if

SPEAKER_06: received within two hours at the

SPEAKER_06: end of the meeting.

Unknown: The last item on the agenda is

SPEAKER_06: to provide a summary of

SPEAKER_06: committee direction.

SPEAKER_06: Yeah.

Unknown: And I would just say that for me.

SPEAKER_06: I would just love to have an

SPEAKER_06: update on this fairly, like, I

SPEAKER_06: don't know, annually or

SPEAKER_06: biannually.

SPEAKER_06: It's so interesting.

SPEAKER_06: And this is evolving so quickly.

SPEAKER_06: We'd love to.

SPEAKER_06: I mean, I would at least as one

SPEAKER_06: board member.

SPEAKER_06: I don't know if anybody else is

SPEAKER_06: interested.

SPEAKER_08: I think you're right.

SPEAKER_06: Okay.

SPEAKER_06: Because this could really improve

SPEAKER_06: our resilience if we can figure

SPEAKER_06: this out.

SPEAKER_06: And I'd also like to hear how

SPEAKER_06: these other pilots are starting to

SPEAKER_06: come back from these other IOUs

SPEAKER_06: and so forth.

SPEAKER_06: Fascinating.

SPEAKER_06: Okay.

SPEAKER_06: So it looks like a lot of head

SPEAKER_06: nighting on that.

SPEAKER_06: So maybe that's the committee

SPEAKER_06: direction is just hopefully every

SPEAKER_06: year we can get an update on

SPEAKER_06: this.

SPEAKER_06: Okay.

SPEAKER_06: Everybody's good.

SPEAKER_06: All right.

Unknown: Thank you.

SPEAKER_06: And then the policy committee will

SPEAKER_06: begin at the conclusion of this

SPEAKER_06: meeting.

SPEAKER_06: There will be a brief pause while

SPEAKER_06: staff stops the recording for the

SPEAKER_06: committee meeting and starts the

SPEAKER_06: recording for the policy committee

SPEAKER_06: meeting.

SPEAKER_06: So with that we are adjourned.

SPEAKER_06: And we will.

Unknown: Thank you.

Unknown: Thank you.