WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:28.879 Unknown: 78 neighbour 00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.000 Unknown: Thank you. 00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:02.000 Unknown: Thank you. 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:32.000 Unknown: Thank you. 00:07:00.000 --> 00:07:02.000 Unknown: Thank you. 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:39.000 Unknown: Good evening, everyone, and welcome to the Strategic Development Committee and Special 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.199 SPEAKER_08: Board Meeting of August 11, 2026. 00:07:42.199 --> 00:07:43.839 SPEAKER_08: This room is equipped with a safety alarm. 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:48.199 SPEAKER_08: If the alarm sounds, please leave in an orderly manner via the exits to the lobby or behind 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:49.199 SPEAKER_08: the dais. 00:07:49.199 --> 00:07:52.420 SPEAKER_08: Assemble in front of the building or wait for the all clear announcement from security 00:07:52.420 --> 00:07:54.240 SPEAKER_08: before reentering. 00:07:54.240 --> 00:07:59.139 SPEAKER_08: This meeting is being recorded and can be accessed on SMUD's website. 00:07:59.139 --> 00:08:02.779 SPEAKER_08: Please remember to unmute your microphone when speaking in order that our virtual attendees 00:08:02.779 --> 00:08:03.779 SPEAKER_08: may hear. 00:08:03.779 --> 00:08:08.099 Unknown: The microphone will display a green indicator light when the mic is on. 00:08:08.099 --> 00:08:11.839 SPEAKER_08: For members of the public attending in person that wish to speak at this meeting, please 00:08:11.839 --> 00:08:16.479 SPEAKER_08: fill out a speaker's request form located on the table outside this room and hand it 00:08:16.479 --> 00:08:18.779 SPEAKER_08: to SMUD's security. 00:08:18.779 --> 00:08:22.019 SPEAKER_08: Members of the public attending the meeting virtually that wish to provide verbal comments 00:08:22.019 --> 00:08:27.180 SPEAKER_08: during the meeting may do so by using the raised hand feature in Zoom or pressing star 00:08:27.180 --> 00:08:31.939 SPEAKER_08: 9 while dialed into the telephone toll-free number at the time the public comment is 00:08:31.939 --> 00:08:33.299 SPEAKER_08: called. 00:08:33.299 --> 00:08:36.659 SPEAKER_08: Technical support staff will enable the audio for you when your name is announced during 00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:38.820 SPEAKER_08: the public comment period. 00:08:38.820 --> 00:08:43.779 SPEAKER_08: You may also submit written comments by emailing them to publiccommentatsmud.org. 00:08:43.779 --> 00:08:47.980 SPEAKER_08: Written comments will not be read into the record but will be provided to the board electronically 00:08:47.980 --> 00:08:53.580 SPEAKER_08: and placed into the record of the meeting if received within two hours after the meeting 00:08:53.580 --> 00:08:54.899 SPEAKER_08: ends. 00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:55.899 SPEAKER_08: Thank you. 00:08:55.899 --> 00:09:01.899 SPEAKER_08: All those in favor of the motion, please conduct the roll call. 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:10.220 SPEAKER_07: All committee members present, also present are directors rose and Buick-Thompson. 00:09:10.220 --> 00:09:11.220 SPEAKER_07: Thank you. 00:09:11.220 --> 00:09:17.259 SPEAKER_08: So first we will have item ‑‑ it's probably the only item on the agenda ‑‑ tonight's 00:09:17.259 --> 00:09:22.179 SPEAKER_08: agenda is to provide the board's informational ‑‑ informational internal and external 00:09:22.179 --> 00:09:27.419 SPEAKER_08: presentations and discussion about enhanced geothermal which I'm extremely excited about 00:09:27.419 --> 00:09:30.819 Unknown: and also carbon capture and storage. 00:09:30.819 --> 00:09:38.019 SPEAKER_08: So we have a very full evening and our presenters right now we have a number of presenters here. 00:09:38.019 --> 00:09:42.859 SPEAKER_08: Unfortunately, Eric Miner from the California resources corporation was not able to attend 00:09:42.859 --> 00:09:43.859 SPEAKER_08: tonight. 00:09:43.859 --> 00:09:48.659 Unknown: But we will start off with a brief introduction from our own Brian Swan, director of resource 00:09:48.659 --> 00:09:50.659 SPEAKER_08: planning and settlements. 00:09:50.740 --> 00:09:56.419 SPEAKER_08: And then I'll ask each of the speakers briefly to introduce themselves prior to their presentations. 00:09:56.419 --> 00:09:57.419 SPEAKER_08: So we'll start with you. 00:09:57.419 --> 00:09:58.419 SPEAKER_08: Mr. Swan. 00:09:58.419 --> 00:09:59.419 Unknown: Great. 00:09:59.419 --> 00:10:00.419 SPEAKER_10: Thank you, Chair Sanborn. 00:10:00.419 --> 00:10:01.419 SPEAKER_10: Great to see you all here tonight. 00:10:01.419 --> 00:10:08.860 SPEAKER_10: We have a great list of presenters here to really highlight some of the emerging technologies 00:10:08.860 --> 00:10:13.980 SPEAKER_10: that we're really excited about. 00:10:13.980 --> 00:10:18.899 SPEAKER_10: Being enhanced geothermal and carbon capture and sequestration as mentioned by Chair Sanborn 00:10:18.899 --> 00:10:19.899 SPEAKER_10: there. 00:10:20.139 --> 00:10:25.620 SPEAKER_10: Through our zero carbon work we understand these are very important resources. 00:10:25.620 --> 00:10:30.019 SPEAKER_10: These are resources that are clean, reliable, 24‑7. 00:10:30.019 --> 00:10:34.019 SPEAKER_10: So really support the decarbonization pathways. 00:10:34.019 --> 00:10:37.419 SPEAKER_10: We know there's only so much you can do with things like wind and solar. 00:10:37.419 --> 00:10:43.539 SPEAKER_10: So geothermal as we know today provides a lot of benefits in our portfolio. 00:10:43.539 --> 00:10:48.059 SPEAKER_10: Carbon capture and sequestration we're also very excited about and exploring a project 00:10:48.059 --> 00:10:51.579 SPEAKER_10: with Calpine Sutter. 00:10:51.579 --> 00:10:57.299 SPEAKER_10: As we're listening to the presenters tonight I want to highlight again as we talked about 00:10:57.299 --> 00:11:04.819 SPEAKER_10: in the April zero carbon plant update we have an IRP process that's kicking off in October. 00:11:04.819 --> 00:11:09.619 SPEAKER_10: So a lot of the information we're hearing tonight is great groundwork for those ‑‑ that 00:11:09.619 --> 00:11:10.619 SPEAKER_10: process, right? 00:11:10.619 --> 00:11:13.299 SPEAKER_10: So kicking off in October. 00:11:13.299 --> 00:11:17.620 SPEAKER_10: Things like when can we reasonably expect these resources to be available? 00:11:17.620 --> 00:11:19.019 SPEAKER_10: At what price? 00:11:19.019 --> 00:11:20.019 SPEAKER_10: And so on. 00:11:20.019 --> 00:11:24.859 SPEAKER_10: So do be thinking about that upcoming IRP process. 00:11:24.859 --> 00:11:29.379 SPEAKER_10: Our first speaker from EPRI will provide an overview of enhanced geothermal. 00:11:29.379 --> 00:11:37.659 SPEAKER_10: Again, a great resource today in our portfolio that contributes about 12% of our energy supply 00:11:37.659 --> 00:11:39.979 SPEAKER_10: to meet retail sales. 00:11:39.980 --> 00:11:46.019 SPEAKER_10: We have about 150 megawatts of existing geothermal technology in our fleet. 00:11:46.019 --> 00:11:53.259 SPEAKER_10: Some in northern California, some in southern California down in Salton Sea as well as out 00:11:53.259 --> 00:11:56.300 SPEAKER_10: by the geysers in northern California. 00:11:56.300 --> 00:12:03.379 SPEAKER_10: We also have an additional 50 megawatts due online between 2028 and 2030 again from the 00:12:03.379 --> 00:12:08.019 SPEAKER_10: geysers project from Calpine. 00:12:08.019 --> 00:12:14.740 SPEAKER_10: Now current opportunities for existing technology on geothermal, very limited today, right? 00:12:14.740 --> 00:12:19.139 SPEAKER_10: A lot of it's been identified and used and utilized today. 00:12:19.139 --> 00:12:24.779 SPEAKER_10: And so the thought of additional geothermal using new technology is very exciting from 00:12:24.779 --> 00:12:28.059 SPEAKER_10: a resource planning perspective. 00:12:28.059 --> 00:12:33.740 SPEAKER_10: Second we'll hear from another speaker from EPRI and the California resources corporation 00:12:33.740 --> 00:12:36.059 SPEAKER_10: in carbon teraVolt. 00:12:36.059 --> 00:12:38.699 SPEAKER_10: They'll highlight carbon capture and storage. 00:12:38.699 --> 00:12:43.179 SPEAKER_10: They'll highlight costs associated with the technology, some existing projects that are 00:12:43.179 --> 00:12:44.939 SPEAKER_10: out there. 00:12:44.939 --> 00:12:50.579 SPEAKER_10: And really interesting from the carbon teraVolt side, we'll hear about a number of vaults 00:12:50.579 --> 00:12:56.539 SPEAKER_10: that are being explored in California to sequester carbon. 00:12:56.539 --> 00:13:00.339 SPEAKER_10: And again, our exploration of CCS has been in depth. 00:13:00.340 --> 00:13:08.580 SPEAKER_10: As we heard about in the April 15th ZCP update, that Calpine Sutter carbon capture and sequestration 00:13:08.580 --> 00:13:14.420 SPEAKER_10: opportunity that's out there continues to be explored with Calpine and John Olson and 00:13:14.420 --> 00:13:16.019 SPEAKER_10: the contracts team. 00:13:16.019 --> 00:13:23.860 SPEAKER_10: And we do anticipate potentially discussing an offer sometime mid to late 2027. 00:13:23.860 --> 00:13:27.620 SPEAKER_10: So I wanted to provide some context on some of the resources that we're exploring in these 00:13:27.620 --> 00:13:29.780 SPEAKER_10: areas. 00:13:29.779 --> 00:13:33.019 SPEAKER_10: Last but not least, I just want to thank all the speakers for joining us here tonight. 00:13:33.019 --> 00:13:38.500 SPEAKER_10: Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy lives to be here and just really join 00:13:38.500 --> 00:13:39.500 SPEAKER_10: the discussion. 00:13:39.500 --> 00:13:43.939 SPEAKER_10: We couldn't do it without industry coming out and really providing a lot of great detailed 00:13:43.939 --> 00:13:44.939 SPEAKER_10: information. 00:13:44.939 --> 00:13:47.179 SPEAKER_10: So thank you all. 00:13:47.179 --> 00:13:54.779 SPEAKER_10: With that, I'll go ahead and have our first speaker from EPRI, Ms. Laura Gierramante, 00:13:54.779 --> 00:13:59.379 SPEAKER_10: to go ahead and introduce yourself and go ahead and jump into your material. 00:13:59.379 --> 00:14:07.860 SPEAKER_10: Thank you so much. 00:14:07.860 --> 00:14:09.340 SPEAKER_01: Thank you. 00:14:09.340 --> 00:14:10.740 SPEAKER_01: Thank you for the invitation. 00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:12.340 SPEAKER_01: My name is Laura Gierramante. 00:14:12.340 --> 00:14:14.820 SPEAKER_01: I'm a geoscientist. 00:14:14.820 --> 00:14:17.220 SPEAKER_01: We have geoscientists at EPRI as well. 00:14:17.220 --> 00:14:21.860 SPEAKER_01: And I'm very happy to hear that you're excited about here now at Geothermal. 00:14:21.860 --> 00:14:28.700 SPEAKER_01: So first I'm going to do a very brief introduction of EPRI for those of you that don't know us. 00:14:28.700 --> 00:14:32.660 SPEAKER_01: So EPRI is a nonprofit with the benefit of the public. 00:14:32.660 --> 00:14:35.620 SPEAKER_01: We have a very strong non-advocacy mandate. 00:14:35.620 --> 00:14:42.300 SPEAKER_01: We are an applied research institute that our mode of over-random is basically based 00:14:42.300 --> 00:14:43.300 SPEAKER_01: on collaboration. 00:14:43.300 --> 00:14:47.700 SPEAKER_01: We value our credibility and independence very highly and, of course, the expertise 00:14:47.700 --> 00:14:48.980 SPEAKER_01: we provide. 00:14:48.980 --> 00:14:54.980 SPEAKER_01: And we explore topics around nuclear generation, power delivery, utilization, environment 00:14:54.980 --> 00:14:57.259 SPEAKER_01: decarbonization, et cetera. 00:14:57.259 --> 00:15:00.819 SPEAKER_01: So Abodjit and myself are part of the generation sector. 00:15:00.819 --> 00:15:06.860 SPEAKER_01: And I'm the geothermal lead inside EPRI. 00:15:06.860 --> 00:15:14.179 SPEAKER_01: So with that, I'm going to talk about geothermal and try to answer why the question about why 00:15:14.179 --> 00:15:18.700 SPEAKER_01: utilities are reevaluating geothermal right now. 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:20.939 SPEAKER_01: Geothermal is a very mature technology. 00:15:20.940 --> 00:15:27.740 SPEAKER_01: Conventional or hydrothermal has been going on for more than 100 years. 00:15:27.740 --> 00:15:31.340 SPEAKER_01: It's a reliable, clean source of power. 00:15:31.340 --> 00:15:38.420 SPEAKER_01: And with technology innovations that I'm going to be talking about, it's really a very attractive, 00:15:38.420 --> 00:15:46.380 SPEAKER_01: clean, reliable power for the future of energy that we all know we need a lot. 00:15:46.380 --> 00:15:48.980 SPEAKER_01: So it's a continuous renewable energy. 00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:51.980 SPEAKER_01: Energy factors could be around 90%. 00:15:51.980 --> 00:15:55.180 SPEAKER_01: It's clean, relatively low emissions. 00:15:55.180 --> 00:16:00.340 SPEAKER_01: It has a low lifecycle greenhouse emissions. 00:16:00.340 --> 00:16:05.740 SPEAKER_01: Minimal land footprint that is always very important. 00:16:05.740 --> 00:16:11.259 SPEAKER_01: Leverages existing fossil energy supply chains and work flow and innovation chain and provides 00:16:11.259 --> 00:16:15.620 SPEAKER_01: great stability and energy security. 00:16:15.620 --> 00:16:23.419 SPEAKER_01: So why now, what is the big jump on or why we are considering geothermal so much is with 00:16:23.419 --> 00:16:28.659 SPEAKER_01: all these technology innovations that I discussed, there are a lot of new technologies that are 00:16:28.659 --> 00:16:33.820 SPEAKER_01: allowing for geothermal to be really a promise and actually a reality moving away from this 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:36.940 SPEAKER_01: niche of focus that it was before. 00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:40.980 SPEAKER_01: There are commercial projects already emerging. 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:49.379 SPEAKER_01: Water scalers, they see geothermal as a very strong potential source of clean energy and 00:16:49.379 --> 00:16:55.779 SPEAKER_01: they are committing and helping with innovation advances. 00:16:55.779 --> 00:17:03.899 SPEAKER_01: The potential by 2050 globally is almost 800 gigawatts and it's estimated that it can provide 00:17:03.899 --> 00:17:09.380 SPEAKER_01: around 15% of future global electricity demand growth. 00:17:09.380 --> 00:17:17.700 SPEAKER_01: It's a very important and 24 seven carbon free resource. 00:17:17.700 --> 00:17:21.700 SPEAKER_01: Just in order to talk about the innovations, I just wanted to make sure to everyone we 00:17:21.700 --> 00:17:23.780 SPEAKER_01: are talking about the same. 00:17:23.780 --> 00:17:28.500 SPEAKER_01: Conventional or hydrothermal geothermal is this very mature technology that has been 00:17:28.500 --> 00:17:33.500 SPEAKER_01: going on in Italy and California, the geysers, et cetera, for a long time. 00:17:33.500 --> 00:17:39.100 SPEAKER_01: In order for you to be able to generate electricity with geothermal, you need three things. 00:17:39.139 --> 00:17:42.939 SPEAKER_01: You need the heat source to be close to the surface, close enough that you can actually 00:17:42.939 --> 00:17:45.099 SPEAKER_01: drill and access it. 00:17:45.099 --> 00:17:50.099 SPEAKER_01: You need to have fluid to harness the heat on the subsurface and you need permeability, 00:17:50.099 --> 00:17:55.699 SPEAKER_01: which is basically conduct for this fluid to percolate in the subsurface to move and 00:17:55.699 --> 00:18:00.899 SPEAKER_01: then so you can extract it to the surface and with that hot water you generate electricity. 00:18:00.899 --> 00:18:05.699 SPEAKER_01: So in order, the reason that you have these three elements that you need is what made 00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:10.059 SPEAKER_01: geothermal to be a niche technology because these three elements usually you can find 00:18:10.059 --> 00:18:14.980 SPEAKER_01: them in the plate tectonic areas, in the border of where there is a lot of earthquakes, a 00:18:14.980 --> 00:18:17.220 SPEAKER_01: lot of volcanoes, et cetera. 00:18:17.220 --> 00:18:24.740 SPEAKER_01: That is what made conventional geothermal being relatively limited over these 100 years. 00:18:24.740 --> 00:18:29.900 SPEAKER_01: Of course, California is part of this area so we were lucky to have the US is one of 00:18:29.900 --> 00:18:34.980 SPEAKER_01: the highest producers of conventional geothermal right now. 00:18:34.980 --> 00:18:41.860 SPEAKER_01: All this geothermal revolution, what is happening is that actually there are a lot of engineering 00:18:41.860 --> 00:18:45.860 SPEAKER_01: systems or processes that you can do when you don't have these three elements that you 00:18:45.860 --> 00:18:46.860 SPEAKER_01: need. 00:18:46.860 --> 00:18:52.099 SPEAKER_01: So basically, like in the center, is one of the most well-known enhanced geothermal or 00:18:52.099 --> 00:18:53.140 SPEAKER_01: EGS. 00:18:53.140 --> 00:18:58.740 SPEAKER_01: Most of you might have heard about FERBO, the company that is actually leading the development 00:18:58.740 --> 00:19:01.140 SPEAKER_01: of EGS projects. 00:19:01.140 --> 00:19:06.580 SPEAKER_01: What they are doing is basically apply the shell gas playbook from the oil and gas, horizontal 00:19:06.580 --> 00:19:13.580 SPEAKER_01: wells connecting these well-width fractures and circulating water to cold water goes in, 00:19:13.580 --> 00:19:21.420 SPEAKER_01: extract the heat from the rock and then produce hot water and with that they generate electricity. 00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:28.420 SPEAKER_01: So again, it's very coming very straightforward from the oil and gas with certain, of course, 00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:30.420 SPEAKER_01: characteristics. 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:33.820 SPEAKER_01: The rocks are different, the temperatures are different, but they are adapting. 00:19:33.820 --> 00:19:39.420 SPEAKER_01: In this case, basically, you had a heat source close to the surface, but you didn't have 00:19:39.420 --> 00:19:41.660 SPEAKER_01: water and you didn't have this permeability. 00:19:41.660 --> 00:19:45.539 SPEAKER_01: So you engineered the system in order to be able to harness that heat. 00:19:45.539 --> 00:19:52.539 SPEAKER_01: There is another big technology proposition for next generation geothermal, which is called 00:19:52.900 --> 00:19:58.100 SPEAKER_01: advanced geothermal or closed loop, it's more usually referred. 00:19:58.099 --> 00:20:02.539 SPEAKER_01: The idea is very nice because basically you just have either a single well or a loop of 00:20:02.539 --> 00:20:08.659 SPEAKER_01: a well in which the fluid that harnesses heat is inside this well and is never in contact 00:20:08.659 --> 00:20:09.819 SPEAKER_01: with the rock. 00:20:09.819 --> 00:20:14.539 SPEAKER_01: So that makes it easier, you don't have to deal with corrosion issues, there are certain 00:20:14.539 --> 00:20:17.459 SPEAKER_01: things that you have to deal and engineer, et cetera. 00:20:17.459 --> 00:20:22.019 SPEAKER_01: But the problem is that the conduction in that system is very low. 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:26.939 SPEAKER_01: So in order for you to be able to harness a lot of heat and produce a lot of electricity 00:20:27.019 --> 00:20:32.660 SPEAKER_01: from there, sometimes you have to end up drilling very long wells and the cost is not there 00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:33.340 SPEAKER_01: yet. 00:20:33.340 --> 00:20:37.940 SPEAKER_01: So that is one of the less advanced technologies. 00:20:37.940 --> 00:20:44.180 SPEAKER_01: So if you can imagine what this engineering aspect goes, one thing that is important that 00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:50.779 SPEAKER_01: also the oil and gas really collaborates to increase geothermal production is that all 00:20:50.899 --> 00:20:57.379 SPEAKER_01: these drilling innovations allow you to drill deeper, faster, which means cheaper, so projects 00:20:57.379 --> 00:20:59.420 SPEAKER_01: are more cost efficient. 00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:05.379 SPEAKER_01: So if you can, in these maps of the U.S., you can see what is the temperatures estimated 00:21:05.379 --> 00:21:09.779 SPEAKER_01: around five kilometers depth and the temperatures at 10 kilometers depth. 00:21:09.779 --> 00:21:13.859 SPEAKER_01: So it's much hotter so then the efficiency will be higher and then on top of that you 00:21:13.859 --> 00:21:18.859 SPEAKER_01: are making possible to extract geothermal in areas that before it was not possible. 00:21:21.139 --> 00:21:26.420 SPEAKER_01: So EGS makes it one of the biggest promises that makes geothermal less geographically 00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:28.740 SPEAKER_01: restricted. 00:21:28.740 --> 00:21:35.740 SPEAKER_01: So the market potential, so I already mentioned this estimation of 800 GW globally, 15% by 00:21:36.220 --> 00:21:38.940 SPEAKER_01: 2050. 00:21:38.940 --> 00:21:44.420 SPEAKER_01: Drilling technologies are like what is actually moving the needle here to drill faster, cheaper 00:21:44.420 --> 00:21:49.059 SPEAKER_01: and make these projects more commercially available. 00:21:49.059 --> 00:21:52.379 SPEAKER_01: And then there is one also another big result. 00:21:52.379 --> 00:21:54.220 SPEAKER_01: This is the holy trail of geothermal. 00:21:54.220 --> 00:21:56.179 SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to touch much on this. 00:21:56.179 --> 00:22:02.379 SPEAKER_01: But if you are actually able to go much deeper into places where the rock is at super critical 00:22:02.379 --> 00:22:07.460 SPEAKER_01: conditions, the efficiency of the well or the geothermal system will be so much higher 00:22:07.460 --> 00:22:12.179 SPEAKER_01: that it will solve the economic issue that is drilling so much there, right? 00:22:12.179 --> 00:22:14.779 SPEAKER_01: That is what we are trying to advance today. 00:22:14.779 --> 00:22:21.779 SPEAKER_01: So that's everything based on the fact that the heat is everywhere in the earth and the 00:22:22.700 --> 00:22:27.700 SPEAKER_01: challenge here is to be able to access it at economic conditions. 00:22:27.700 --> 00:22:32.059 Unknown: There are still key challenges. 00:22:32.059 --> 00:22:34.819 SPEAKER_01: Some of them are technical. 00:22:34.819 --> 00:22:40.819 SPEAKER_01: So one of the big parts of geothermal project is to actually discover the resource and confirm 00:22:41.500 --> 00:22:42.220 SPEAKER_01: it. 00:22:42.299 --> 00:22:46.460 SPEAKER_01: This is a part that is usually not very well known for the utility. 00:22:46.460 --> 00:22:49.420 SPEAKER_01: The utilities are not used to deal with the subsurface. 00:22:49.420 --> 00:22:54.579 SPEAKER_01: And that's where oil and gas experience is also very helpful because they are dealing 00:22:54.579 --> 00:23:01.579 SPEAKER_01: with uncertainty in the subsurface for a long time and they have these risk processes in 00:23:01.900 --> 00:23:05.180 SPEAKER_01: which they can advance this type of project. 00:23:05.180 --> 00:23:11.299 SPEAKER_01: And AI, of course, is advancing a lot this area because then you can do a lot of take 00:23:11.299 --> 00:23:18.299 SPEAKER_01: advantage of AI processes to understand indirect data to talk about the resource in the subsurface. 00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:23.019 SPEAKER_01: Drilling cost and well performance is one of what I mentioned. 00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:27.460 SPEAKER_01: That is also another that the industry is progressing a lot on that. 00:23:27.460 --> 00:23:31.299 SPEAKER_01: Reservoir productivity is one of the big questions because I mentioned that there are a lot of 00:23:31.299 --> 00:23:35.460 SPEAKER_01: these commercial projects going on right now and the big question is how it's going to 00:23:35.460 --> 00:23:39.779 SPEAKER_01: be their performance in 20, 30 years, right? 00:23:39.779 --> 00:23:44.259 SPEAKER_01: Of course that is not a show stopper in the sense that if they actually, the area that 00:23:44.259 --> 00:23:49.500 SPEAKER_01: you're producing just thermal cools down faster than you expected, there is always a chance 00:23:49.500 --> 00:23:54.500 SPEAKER_01: of drilling more and getting those areas that you haven't sweep the heat yet. 00:23:54.500 --> 00:23:57.819 SPEAKER_01: So it's not going to cancel or stop the project. 00:23:57.819 --> 00:24:00.099 SPEAKER_01: It might change the cost. 00:24:00.099 --> 00:24:06.099 SPEAKER_01: But that is one concern that people are observing to see what's happening. 00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:10.379 SPEAKER_01: Then the other issues has to be with financial. 00:24:10.379 --> 00:24:11.699 SPEAKER_01: It's very difficult. 00:24:11.699 --> 00:24:18.699 SPEAKER_01: It was very difficult to get loans or funding for this type of projects because you don't 00:24:19.539 --> 00:24:22.779 SPEAKER_01: have a lot of history of this area's performing. 00:24:22.779 --> 00:24:27.779 SPEAKER_01: So what is what you can do as a guarantee when you ask for a loan? 00:24:27.779 --> 00:24:33.059 Unknown: But then, well, these commercial demonstrations, et cetera, are helping a lot and then this 00:24:33.139 --> 00:24:40.139 SPEAKER_01: is where hyperscalers are also helping a lot as well because they are going for technologies 00:24:41.379 --> 00:24:47.539 SPEAKER_01: that even though they are emerging, they are giving the signal and guarantee purchase of 00:24:47.539 --> 00:24:52.980 SPEAKER_01: certain of these projects at a higher premium when the project is online and that helps 00:24:52.980 --> 00:24:59.179 SPEAKER_01: the developers to actually say, yes, we have a buyer and it helps the cycle of financing, 00:24:59.179 --> 00:25:01.819 SPEAKER_01: bankability, et cetera. 00:25:01.819 --> 00:25:07.779 SPEAKER_01: So regularity approval was one of the also things that it was very difficult because 00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:12.619 SPEAKER_01: projects were taking so long that it was very difficult for a utility to put it in the IRP 00:25:12.619 --> 00:25:17.899 SPEAKER_01: process because they had to wait much longer than with other technologies. 00:25:17.899 --> 00:25:21.859 SPEAKER_01: That is being expedited a lot and with this administration there were several categorical 00:25:21.859 --> 00:25:27.859 SPEAKER_01: exclusions and things like that that are making some of these process much faster. 00:25:28.980 --> 00:25:31.460 SPEAKER_01: But I'll talk about this in a minute. 00:25:31.460 --> 00:25:35.059 SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, transmission and interconnection. 00:25:35.059 --> 00:25:39.500 SPEAKER_01: If we start considering geothermal in early transmission planning and increase integrations 00:25:39.500 --> 00:25:43.900 SPEAKER_01: with the utility resource planning process, that might help as well. 00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:46.660 SPEAKER_01: And then community acceptance and seismicity. 00:25:46.660 --> 00:25:48.980 SPEAKER_01: So public concern is an issue. 00:25:48.980 --> 00:25:54.460 SPEAKER_01: A lot of the things are around water and induced seismicity. 00:25:54.460 --> 00:25:56.539 SPEAKER_01: For all these, they've enhanced geothermal. 00:25:56.539 --> 00:26:00.579 SPEAKER_01: For example, they are very water intensive but the water is not fresh water. 00:26:00.579 --> 00:26:04.500 SPEAKER_01: You can get it from areas that it won't be an issue. 00:26:04.500 --> 00:26:06.939 SPEAKER_01: But it's important to let the people know. 00:26:06.939 --> 00:26:12.220 SPEAKER_01: And induced seismicity is an issue but there are a lot of protocols that industry is getting 00:26:12.220 --> 00:26:19.220 SPEAKER_01: very well, very good at real time measurements and protocols in order to deal with these 00:26:19.699 --> 00:26:20.779 SPEAKER_01: things. 00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:25.619 SPEAKER_01: One of the important things with geothermal is that you are constantly injecting but also 00:26:25.619 --> 00:26:32.539 SPEAKER_01: extracting fluids so you don't build up a lot of pressure in the subsurface. 00:26:32.539 --> 00:26:36.619 SPEAKER_01: So regarding the economics, geothermal used to have this thing out. 00:26:36.619 --> 00:26:37.899 SPEAKER_01: It's very expensive. 00:26:37.899 --> 00:26:42.939 SPEAKER_01: And the reason is because you have to put a lot of cost at the beginning of the project, 00:26:42.939 --> 00:26:48.459 SPEAKER_01: which is mostly drilling costs were like 30 to 75% of the total capex. 00:26:48.459 --> 00:26:53.500 SPEAKER_01: But if you actually compare this, the cost of geothermal, the non-intermittent renewable 00:26:53.500 --> 00:26:59.059 SPEAKER_01: and other technologies is actually quite competitive. 00:26:59.059 --> 00:27:05.180 SPEAKER_01: So you have geothermal in the middle of the renewable generation. 00:27:05.180 --> 00:27:12.180 SPEAKER_01: And then another important thing for geothermal is that it was also judged on base of LCOE. 00:27:15.539 --> 00:27:22.539 SPEAKER_01: But that ignores a lot of other benefits of geothermal that you can have 24-7, dispatchability, 00:27:23.059 --> 00:27:28.220 SPEAKER_01: clean, high availability, great reliability, and reduced needs for backup, power, storage, 00:27:28.220 --> 00:27:29.539 SPEAKER_01: and transmission infrastructure. 00:27:29.539 --> 00:27:34.819 SPEAKER_01: So in fact, at EPRI, we have a project right now funded by DOE looking at new metrics to 00:27:34.819 --> 00:27:40.659 SPEAKER_01: understand the real value of geothermal because LCOE really doesn't represent that. 00:27:40.659 --> 00:27:44.619 SPEAKER_01: So here is what I mentioned about the maturity and deployment timelines. 00:27:44.619 --> 00:27:46.339 SPEAKER_01: This is just to compare. 00:27:46.339 --> 00:27:50.899 SPEAKER_01: This was a publication from DOE three, four years back. 00:27:50.900 --> 00:27:57.019 SPEAKER_01: So at that time, a total project time was around seven and 10 years, and they were proposing 00:27:57.019 --> 00:28:03.060 SPEAKER_01: some measures in order to make this shorter, which was the proposed reduction was on the 00:28:03.060 --> 00:28:06.860 SPEAKER_01: base for four to seven years. 00:28:06.860 --> 00:28:12.300 SPEAKER_01: And actually, that was a lot at the beginning on the exploration part. 00:28:12.300 --> 00:28:19.300 SPEAKER_01: And with all these categorical exclusions and then some timelines on how much environmental 00:28:20.299 --> 00:28:26.299 SPEAKER_01: review process can happen, et cetera, is we are much closer to that time now. 00:28:27.500 --> 00:28:33.259 SPEAKER_01: This is just to mention some of the companies that have done agreements with these new geothermal 00:28:33.259 --> 00:28:33.759 SPEAKER_01: companies. 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:38.859 SPEAKER_01: Google, for example, they developed in partnership with Ferbo and with Nevada Energy. 00:28:38.859 --> 00:28:42.899 SPEAKER_01: And the state of Nevada, they developed this study, they call it the Green Clean Tariff 00:28:42.899 --> 00:28:48.899 SPEAKER_01: or something like that, in which basically Google made the commitment of why the global 00:28:50.299 --> 00:28:55.139 Unknown: megawatts from Ferbo when Ferbo develops their project is going to be at a premium because 00:28:55.139 --> 00:28:57.980 SPEAKER_01: it's like a lot of loads for the data centers. 00:28:57.980 --> 00:29:01.879 SPEAKER_01: And then that is going to be true in Nevada Energy, and it's not going to affect the price 00:29:01.879 --> 00:29:03.180 SPEAKER_01: of other consumers. 00:29:03.180 --> 00:29:10.180 SPEAKER_01: So with that, they gave the signal that Ferbo has a customer and is ready to go with this. 00:29:10.220 --> 00:29:14.059 SPEAKER_01: And also the confidence that Google has in this technology. 00:29:14.059 --> 00:29:17.740 SPEAKER_01: Nevada has signed some agreements with some other companies. 00:29:17.740 --> 00:29:21.059 SPEAKER_01: XGS is a closed loop and Sage is a hybrid company. 00:29:21.059 --> 00:29:27.099 SPEAKER_01: They're going to, Meta is going to explore New Mexico with XGS, and Microsoft is exploring 00:29:27.099 --> 00:29:32.659 SPEAKER_01: internationally with the utility scale power and then also for heating and cooling. 00:29:32.659 --> 00:29:36.139 SPEAKER_01: One thing I didn't mention is that geothermal, you can use it for a lot of things, not only 00:29:36.139 --> 00:29:38.539 SPEAKER_01: power, but we are focusing power in this presentation. 00:29:38.539 --> 00:29:41.099 Unknown: A quick question. 00:29:41.099 --> 00:29:48.099 SPEAKER_08: So it's the AI is driving and providing the money for all the big new developments, and 00:29:50.259 --> 00:29:56.619 SPEAKER_08: are they using all the power, or is there power left over for others? 00:29:56.619 --> 00:30:00.219 SPEAKER_01: So right now, my understanding is that they are not providing the money. 00:30:00.219 --> 00:30:06.419 SPEAKER_01: They are providing the agreement to buy the power when the power is ready. 00:30:06.420 --> 00:30:13.420 SPEAKER_01: So Ferbo is getting loans from other banks, but the banks, they have the guarantee of 00:30:17.060 --> 00:30:19.820 SPEAKER_01: take. 00:30:19.820 --> 00:30:26.820 SPEAKER_01: And then the guarantee of take for those megawatts are going to be at a premium only for Google, 00:30:26.860 --> 00:30:29.539 SPEAKER_01: because it's for data centers. 00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:34.620 SPEAKER_08: So is there going to be other off takers? 00:30:34.619 --> 00:30:40.259 SPEAKER_01: So for the amount of megawatts that Google needs for this project, they are the only 00:30:40.259 --> 00:30:40.979 SPEAKER_01: off takers. 00:30:40.979 --> 00:30:45.619 SPEAKER_01: But the more projects there are, then the off takes could be anywhere. 00:30:45.619 --> 00:30:52.619 SPEAKER_08: So that makes me think about the public sector getting involved in this before we, I mean, 00:30:55.299 --> 00:31:02.299 SPEAKER_08: because I mean, if we want cost effective geothermal and the big companies are going 00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:10.180 SPEAKER_08: after it and getting all of it right now, that's an interesting situation. 00:31:10.899 --> 00:31:15.619 SPEAKER_01: But they are getting, so one perspective is that they are getting at it right now when 00:31:15.619 --> 00:31:18.859 SPEAKER_01: it's not fully, like they are not tens of a ton. 00:31:18.859 --> 00:31:19.859 SPEAKER_01: It's not commercial ready. 00:31:19.859 --> 00:31:20.819 SPEAKER_01: It's not commercial. 00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:22.659 SPEAKER_01: So they're kind of helping move it along. 00:31:22.659 --> 00:31:23.159 SPEAKER_08: Exactly. 00:31:23.159 --> 00:31:23.659 SPEAKER_08: Okay. 00:31:23.659 --> 00:31:24.659 SPEAKER_08: Very good. Thank you. 00:31:24.659 --> 00:31:27.180 SPEAKER_08: They are the riskiest for the rest of us. 00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:27.700 SPEAKER_01: Yeah. 00:31:27.700 --> 00:31:29.259 SPEAKER_01: Okay. Thank you. 00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:33.779 SPEAKER_00: I wanted to ask, I don't know if I missed this earlier. 00:31:33.779 --> 00:31:38.579 SPEAKER_00: I can't seem to get my computer to bring up the slides. 00:31:38.579 --> 00:31:45.579 SPEAKER_00: But I remembered the map that you showed, which shows basically California is like a 00:31:46.379 --> 00:31:49.220 SPEAKER_00: real hotbed for this. 00:31:49.220 --> 00:31:56.220 SPEAKER_00: Does this involve fracking or, you know, how do we get to the geothermal power? 00:31:57.220 --> 00:31:59.860 SPEAKER_00: So it depends on the technology that you choose. 00:31:59.860 --> 00:32:02.980 SPEAKER_01: So California is a very hot spot and that's why we have the geysers, right? 00:32:02.980 --> 00:32:09.819 SPEAKER_01: I mean, the geyser is just a conventional exploitation of geothermal. 00:32:09.819 --> 00:32:15.339 SPEAKER_01: So if you want to go away of areas where you have all these fluid or rocks, you will have 00:32:15.339 --> 00:32:22.339 SPEAKER_01: to do this fracking in order to connect horizontal wells in order to be able to recirculate the 00:32:22.339 --> 00:32:23.980 SPEAKER_01: fluid that you inject. 00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:29.740 SPEAKER_01: So California has a ban on fracking for oil and gas, but not for geothermal. 00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:30.860 SPEAKER_01: So that is important. 00:32:30.860 --> 00:32:37.500 SPEAKER_01: There is another complex, not complexity, but one thing to take into account is that 00:32:37.500 --> 00:32:39.940 SPEAKER_01: California is also a seismic area, right? 00:32:39.940 --> 00:32:45.940 SPEAKER_01: So when you do these fractureings, you really have to have the data in order to identify 00:32:45.940 --> 00:32:51.539 SPEAKER_01: which, if there are any faults that is dangerous and then you don't do your developing there, 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:51.819 SPEAKER_01: right? 00:32:51.819 --> 00:33:04.980 SPEAKER_01: So from your understanding, it would be possible to do fracking in numerous locations and get 00:33:04.980 --> 00:33:07.619 SPEAKER_00: the geothermal power. 00:33:07.619 --> 00:33:11.859 SPEAKER_00: And is there no concern about fracking? 00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:19.659 SPEAKER_00: It seems like we've heard quite a bit about how that's not good for the planet. 00:33:19.660 --> 00:33:27.380 SPEAKER_01: So you know, I want to, when you deal so much with this, technically you get used to 00:33:27.380 --> 00:33:28.820 SPEAKER_01: and it's not the case, right? 00:33:28.820 --> 00:33:31.700 SPEAKER_01: You have to really make sure that it's done properly. 00:33:31.700 --> 00:33:36.380 SPEAKER_01: One thing to remember is that when you are doing the fracking for these type of geothermal, 00:33:36.380 --> 00:33:39.540 SPEAKER_01: you are doing it at three kilometers down, right? 00:33:39.540 --> 00:33:47.380 SPEAKER_01: So the likelihood of this fluid to actually getting up or getting to freshwater or to 00:33:47.380 --> 00:33:49.980 SPEAKER_01: any contaminants is really, really low. 00:33:49.980 --> 00:33:53.100 SPEAKER_01: I wouldn't say impossible, nothing is impossible, right? 00:33:53.100 --> 00:33:54.900 SPEAKER_01: Scientists cannot say 100% guarantee. 00:33:54.900 --> 00:33:58.540 SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's very, very unlikely that that will happen. 00:33:58.540 --> 00:34:02.140 SPEAKER_01: With the fracking in California, what you just want to make sure is that you are not 00:34:02.140 --> 00:34:05.380 SPEAKER_01: next to a big active fault, right? 00:34:05.380 --> 00:34:07.580 SPEAKER_01: So that is more a concern. 00:34:07.580 --> 00:34:13.260 SPEAKER_01: And then one thing that I mentioned is that when you are doing these hydro fractures, 00:34:13.260 --> 00:34:17.900 SPEAKER_01: the pressure that you are putting is very high for a very short period of time, but 00:34:17.900 --> 00:34:21.900 SPEAKER_01: you are not injecting so much water that you are pressurizing a whole area and making it 00:34:21.900 --> 00:34:23.100 SPEAKER_01: much more difficult. 00:34:23.100 --> 00:34:27.940 SPEAKER_01: So it's part of the engineering process which exists, you know, like what you need to understand 00:34:27.940 --> 00:34:32.500 SPEAKER_01: before doing it, what are the processes if there was something that you didn't see, how 00:34:32.500 --> 00:34:35.260 SPEAKER_01: to stop it and how to remediate it. 00:34:35.260 --> 00:34:36.260 SPEAKER_01: Thank you. 00:34:36.260 --> 00:34:40.800 Unknown: I'm going to ask you to be a chemist as well. 00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:44.680 SPEAKER_06: When fracking for oil and gas, part of the issue was the material that you were actually 00:34:44.680 --> 00:34:52.640 SPEAKER_06: injecting to fracture the rock was toxic or if it got into the aquifer, it's bad. 00:34:52.640 --> 00:34:57.400 SPEAKER_06: Does this necessarily require the same material or can you use something that's a little more 00:34:57.400 --> 00:34:59.240 SPEAKER_06: benign? 00:34:59.240 --> 00:35:03.519 SPEAKER_06: And I think what you just said, it's also fracking for geothermal, you're at a much 00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:06.800 SPEAKER_06: deeper level than typically you would be for oil and gas. 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:09.560 Unknown: Well, the oil and gas depending on your area, right? 00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:13.239 SPEAKER_01: But when we are here, we are talking about two, three kilometers and that's deep enough 00:35:13.239 --> 00:35:15.159 SPEAKER_01: for any contamination. 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:21.679 SPEAKER_01: In principle, most of the water that you inject is brackish water that you get from a formation 00:35:21.679 --> 00:35:25.360 Unknown: way below the freshwater. 00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:31.920 SPEAKER_01: There might be some chemical propants or things like that to keep the fracture open, but this 00:35:31.920 --> 00:35:36.639 SPEAKER_01: could be, I mean, I'm not an expert on that, but basically if there are really, you know, 00:35:37.639 --> 00:35:43.440 Unknown: the regulation of what you cannot put inside there, then it shouldn't be dangerous. 00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:47.559 SPEAKER_01: And that type of, they don't use the same chemicals or things like that in the oil and 00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:48.559 SPEAKER_01: gas. 00:35:48.559 --> 00:35:49.559 SPEAKER_01: But again, I'm not an expert. 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:50.559 SPEAKER_06: Thank you. 00:35:50.559 --> 00:35:57.599 Unknown: I know that in Oklahoma and other states, they've had houses moved off their foundation because 00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:01.839 SPEAKER_08: they were doing fracking for oil and gas and it literally caused the earth to move and 00:36:01.839 --> 00:36:03.279 SPEAKER_08: created earthquakes. 00:36:03.279 --> 00:36:05.679 SPEAKER_08: So that's why you're talking about the fault, right? 00:36:05.679 --> 00:36:10.319 SPEAKER_01: Yes, but so the Oklahoma part is actually the earthquakes. 00:36:10.319 --> 00:36:16.279 SPEAKER_01: If this is the same that we are talking about, the big earthquake storm in that area was 00:36:16.279 --> 00:36:17.759 SPEAKER_01: not because of the fracking. 00:36:17.759 --> 00:36:20.039 SPEAKER_01: It was because of shell gas. 00:36:20.039 --> 00:36:21.039 SPEAKER_01: They do the fracking. 00:36:21.039 --> 00:36:27.960 SPEAKER_01: They extract the gas, but they also extract a lot of water brines and they re-inject the 00:36:27.960 --> 00:36:31.639 SPEAKER_01: brine in other formations in order not to leave it in the surface. 00:36:31.639 --> 00:36:39.279 SPEAKER_01: And that brine is what pressurized a bigger area and created the earthquakes. 00:36:39.279 --> 00:36:42.839 SPEAKER_01: Not the fracking itself, but the brine of water. 00:36:42.839 --> 00:36:43.839 SPEAKER_08: Thank you. 00:36:43.839 --> 00:36:44.839 SPEAKER_08: It's very interesting. 00:36:44.839 --> 00:36:47.799 SPEAKER_08: It's a lot going on when you go down that deep. 00:36:47.799 --> 00:36:51.400 Unknown: Okay, I think that's it for questions. 00:36:51.400 --> 00:36:52.799 SPEAKER_08: You can keep going. 00:36:52.799 --> 00:36:53.799 Unknown: Okay, sorry. 00:36:53.799 --> 00:36:59.639 Unknown: I had the last one that it was kind of the key takeaways. 00:36:59.639 --> 00:37:04.799 SPEAKER_01: So you know, just really offers 24 seven carbon free firm capacity that can support 00:37:04.799 --> 00:37:07.679 SPEAKER_01: reliability and resource adequacy. 00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:13.239 SPEAKER_01: Next generation to thermal significantly expands the potential for this resource availability 00:37:13.239 --> 00:37:17.119 SPEAKER_01: beyond this niche traditional just thermal commercial. 00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:23.960 SPEAKER_01: That deployment is underway supported by major technology companies and a private investment. 00:37:23.960 --> 00:37:29.199 SPEAKER_01: The cost remain uncertain, but in those early commercial projects, the drilling costs are 00:37:29.199 --> 00:37:36.119 SPEAKER_01: decreasing considerably and that is very good news for the cost of geothermal. 00:37:36.119 --> 00:37:41.919 SPEAKER_01: And then we think that just I'm a really could become an important component of diversified 00:37:41.919 --> 00:37:43.919 SPEAKER_01: clean energy portfolio. 00:37:43.919 --> 00:37:44.919 Unknown: Excellent. 00:37:44.919 --> 00:37:45.919 Unknown: Any other questions? 00:37:45.919 --> 00:37:46.919 SPEAKER_08: Questions? 00:37:46.919 --> 00:37:47.919 SPEAKER_08: Yeah, go right in. 00:37:47.919 --> 00:37:48.919 SPEAKER_08: It's interesting. 00:37:48.919 --> 00:37:56.639 SPEAKER_08: In the last slide, you used the term the next generation and then the other terms that you 00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:01.319 SPEAKER_09: mentioned were enhanced geothermal which is fracking and then this idea of advanced 00:38:01.319 --> 00:38:02.920 SPEAKER_09: geothermal which was closed. 00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:08.920 SPEAKER_09: So I think what I'm most curious about is this next generation. 00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:17.319 SPEAKER_09: It wasn't clear is the alphabet, meta and Microsoft projects focus on this next generation 00:38:17.319 --> 00:38:19.599 SPEAKER_09: deep, deep, deep drilling? 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.319 Unknown: Yes, and I went very fast through that. 00:38:22.319 --> 00:38:23.319 SPEAKER_01: So I apologize. 00:38:23.320 --> 00:38:27.320 SPEAKER_01: So basically you have the conventional geothermal or hydrothermal and then you have the next 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.320 SPEAKER_01: generation. 00:38:28.320 --> 00:38:30.080 SPEAKER_01: The next generation is an umbrella. 00:38:30.080 --> 00:38:34.080 SPEAKER_01: And inside the next generation you have the EGS, the enhanced geothermal. 00:38:34.080 --> 00:38:38.720 SPEAKER_01: That's what Ferbo is developing and then Google is what I mentioned. 00:38:38.720 --> 00:38:44.920 SPEAKER_01: You have the closed loop which is what XGS for example and partially SAGE or Ebor. 00:38:44.920 --> 00:38:46.880 SPEAKER_01: Ebor is famous also one. 00:38:46.880 --> 00:38:51.400 SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you know that they did something in Europe, in Germany that they could drill 00:38:51.400 --> 00:38:52.960 SPEAKER_01: kilometer long wells. 00:38:52.960 --> 00:38:54.760 SPEAKER_01: So that's another closed loop. 00:38:54.760 --> 00:38:57.039 SPEAKER_01: So and there are hybrid technologies. 00:38:57.039 --> 00:38:58.920 SPEAKER_01: SAGE is making a hybrid technology. 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.599 SPEAKER_01: Green Fire is also doing hybrid technology. 00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:05.920 SPEAKER_01: So when you talk about all these that is not the traditional or conventional geothermal 00:39:05.920 --> 00:39:09.200 SPEAKER_01: is when you use the next generation. 00:39:09.200 --> 00:39:14.000 SPEAKER_09: Because I look at the, when we looked at that map of California I would note it was green 00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:18.320 SPEAKER_09: even at 10 kilometers under the central valley where we are. 00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:22.760 SPEAKER_09: But there's a lot of potential in surrounding areas especially like the desert. 00:39:22.760 --> 00:39:26.080 SPEAKER_09: So I guess I'm sort of curious. 00:39:26.080 --> 00:39:28.680 SPEAKER_09: What is, I've read a handful of articles. 00:39:28.680 --> 00:39:34.200 SPEAKER_09: I think it's one of the reasons why we asked for this presentation some time back. 00:39:34.200 --> 00:39:37.600 SPEAKER_09: What progress are we seeing on that deep well drilling technology? 00:39:37.600 --> 00:39:42.960 SPEAKER_09: What are some of the technologies being used and is that, is it really coming for real 00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:43.960 SPEAKER_09: or is it? 00:39:43.960 --> 00:39:47.320 SPEAKER_01: The very deep one, the super hot rock geothermal that I mentioned. 00:39:47.800 --> 00:39:51.760 SPEAKER_01: Getting down below that three kilometers into that five range. 00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:58.120 SPEAKER_09: So commercial wells you can do it up to five, seven kilometers but it's not economic right now. 00:39:58.120 --> 00:40:03.320 SPEAKER_01: So going faster and getting stronger beats to go there. 00:40:03.320 --> 00:40:07.320 SPEAKER_01: That's something that is happening right now every time, every day almost. 00:40:07.320 --> 00:40:11.880 SPEAKER_01: So then when we talk about super hot rock geothermal that you can go really deep. 00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:16.480 SPEAKER_01: There are several challenges really because we don't have a real test. 00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:22.280 SPEAKER_01: But one of the technologies that they are being investigated is energy drilling. 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:30.000 SPEAKER_01: So plasma, so from nuclear technology and geotron technology and that one. 00:40:30.000 --> 00:40:32.760 SPEAKER_01: So there is one thing actually. 00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:36.240 SPEAKER_01: So super hot rock in general you can say that you can go very deep. 00:40:36.240 --> 00:40:41.119 SPEAKER_01: But right now the site is gonna try that and test is the Oregon volcano. 00:40:41.119 --> 00:40:43.639 SPEAKER_01: Because there you have the super critical conditions but 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:46.559 SPEAKER_01: like two, three kilometers from the surface, right? 00:40:46.559 --> 00:40:48.279 SPEAKER_01: Because it's a volcano. 00:40:48.279 --> 00:40:56.839 SPEAKER_01: And there is this company Quays that is very, has done a lot of noise or waves. 00:40:56.839 --> 00:41:03.400 SPEAKER_01: Testing this energy drilling and they already, I mean they have tested around several hundred meters. 00:41:03.400 --> 00:41:06.719 SPEAKER_01: I think they did it already and they are gonna test it at new variable car. 00:41:06.719 --> 00:41:17.879 SPEAKER_01: Because I guess like it's interesting right, the big tech companies are doing, have signed the PPAs, right? 00:41:17.879 --> 00:41:21.799 SPEAKER_09: To allow some of this exploration, this sort of next generation. 00:41:21.799 --> 00:41:28.639 SPEAKER_09: But I think sort of and then there is a little bit of dabbling in this extreme drilling technology. 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:32.159 SPEAKER_09: But it comes with all kinds of technical challenges. 00:41:32.359 --> 00:41:39.199 SPEAKER_09: It also expands, it's all about what was the number, 600 terawatts of technical potential. 00:41:39.199 --> 00:41:42.679 SPEAKER_09: And it maps which is pretty astounding. 00:41:42.679 --> 00:41:45.039 SPEAKER_09: The numbers are like can't ignore that. 00:41:45.039 --> 00:41:48.480 Unknown: Yeah, some people compare it to fusion, you know? 00:41:48.480 --> 00:41:50.279 SPEAKER_01: So it's either one or the other one. 00:41:50.279 --> 00:41:54.639 SPEAKER_01: I mean whoever gets there faster or earlier. 00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:58.480 Unknown: I think it's the lowest TRL of everything, right? 00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:04.679 SPEAKER_01: So the proponents, they say that you don't need technical breakthroughs just engineering advancements. 00:42:04.679 --> 00:42:05.800 SPEAKER_01: That we have almost everything. 00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:07.400 SPEAKER_01: But the materials have to be different. 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:14.840 SPEAKER_01: You have to generate a power plant that can, I mean we have super critical conditions and other type of power plants. 00:42:14.840 --> 00:42:17.639 SPEAKER_01: But this one is gonna come with a lot of chemistry from the subsurface. 00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:19.480 SPEAKER_01: So there are all these situations. 00:42:19.480 --> 00:42:24.519 SPEAKER_01: Is your rock gonna be so hard that you can fracture it like you do with EGS? 00:42:24.519 --> 00:42:29.079 SPEAKER_01: Or because it's so hot, it's gonna be a little bit more soft and then you have to find another way. 00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:31.880 SPEAKER_01: So there are challenges as a lowest TRL. 00:42:31.880 --> 00:42:34.119 SPEAKER_01: But there are companies that are investing in that. 00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:34.920 SPEAKER_01: I'm curious. 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:41.840 SPEAKER_09: I know with our Petua project, right, the actual geothermal never panned out, right? 00:42:41.840 --> 00:42:43.559 SPEAKER_09: It is always the risk, right? 00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:47.559 SPEAKER_09: You don't know until you start drilling what you're gonna find. 00:42:47.559 --> 00:42:53.840 SPEAKER_09: But I think the idea of using sort of machine learning AI tap to give you a better understanding 00:42:54.039 --> 00:42:59.240 SPEAKER_09: and reading the ground more effectively so you at least can minimize that risk. 00:42:59.240 --> 00:43:00.160 SPEAKER_09: Yeah, definitely. 00:43:00.160 --> 00:43:02.840 SPEAKER_09: Seems like definitely a very viable pathway. 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:07.000 SPEAKER_09: We'll see how the drilling to five or 10 miles down goes, right? 00:43:07.000 --> 00:43:08.480 SPEAKER_09: There's certainly challenges with that. 00:43:08.480 --> 00:43:09.559 SPEAKER_09: Okay, that's all my questions. 00:43:09.559 --> 00:43:10.200 SPEAKER_09: Thank you so much. 00:43:10.200 --> 00:43:11.720 SPEAKER_09: Okay. 00:43:11.720 --> 00:43:12.360 SPEAKER_08: Gwyneth? 00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:12.840 SPEAKER_08: Great. 00:43:12.840 --> 00:43:13.600 SPEAKER_08: Thank you so much. 00:43:13.600 --> 00:43:15.600 SPEAKER_08: We should probably move on to our next speaker. 00:43:15.600 --> 00:43:16.360 SPEAKER_08: Thank you. 00:43:19.360 --> 00:43:20.360 Unknown: Okay, so. 00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:22.880 Unknown: She's looking at the way of GIS. 00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:25.240 SPEAKER_08: You're now gonna talk carbon capture, correct? 00:43:25.240 --> 00:43:25.760 SPEAKER_08: Yes. 00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:26.760 SPEAKER_03: Yes. 00:43:26.760 --> 00:43:29.200 SPEAKER_03: I just press a button. 00:43:29.200 --> 00:43:29.840 Unknown: Yep. 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:30.519 SPEAKER_03: So thank you again. 00:43:30.519 --> 00:43:32.440 SPEAKER_03: My name is Poitje Bau. 00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:36.800 SPEAKER_03: I'm the program manager for what's called Advanced Generation and CCS. 00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.720 SPEAKER_03: And Laura and I work together at EPRI's Palo Alto office. 00:43:39.720 --> 00:43:41.800 SPEAKER_03: So thank you again for having us. 00:43:43.800 --> 00:43:47.400 SPEAKER_03: So I'm gonna be talking about carbon capture and storage. 00:43:47.400 --> 00:43:51.000 SPEAKER_03: We'll have the next speakers talk a lot more about storage, of course. 00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:54.000 SPEAKER_03: So most of my talk will focus on capture. 00:43:55.800 --> 00:43:57.760 SPEAKER_03: Or the entire chain, I should say. 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:03.920 SPEAKER_03: So carbon capture actually can involve a variety of processes. 00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:07.519 SPEAKER_03: The first one you see on the top is post-combustion, 00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:11.159 SPEAKER_03: in which you typically just take a fossil fuel or any kind of carbonaceous fuel. 00:44:11.159 --> 00:44:13.280 SPEAKER_03: It could be a biofuel even. 00:44:13.280 --> 00:44:16.880 SPEAKER_03: And you just combust it as you do in any power plant. 00:44:16.880 --> 00:44:18.360 SPEAKER_03: And then you do a gas separation. 00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:22.400 SPEAKER_03: The gas separation here is you separate CO2 from nitrogen. 00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:26.640 SPEAKER_03: And then you take the CO2 out. 00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:28.680 SPEAKER_03: And we'll talk about how you do that. 00:44:28.680 --> 00:44:31.480 SPEAKER_03: And then you can send the CO2 for compression and dehydration. 00:44:32.720 --> 00:44:37.240 SPEAKER_03: Another option is that you don't really do post-combustion. 00:44:37.240 --> 00:44:40.880 SPEAKER_03: You actually do what's called pre-combustion, in which you partially oxidize. 00:44:40.880 --> 00:44:43.880 SPEAKER_03: Essentially, you take the carbon and you go to carbon monoxide. 00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:50.320 SPEAKER_03: And then you can do another reaction called water-gas-shift reaction to produce hydrogen. 00:44:50.320 --> 00:44:53.360 SPEAKER_03: And then you take the hydrogen and you combust that with air. 00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:58.800 SPEAKER_03: And that'll give you power and heat. 00:44:58.800 --> 00:45:01.559 SPEAKER_03: And the CO2 is essentially separated from the hydrogen. 00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:06.200 SPEAKER_03: So the second option is looking at a hydrogen CO2 gas separation step. 00:45:07.360 --> 00:45:10.440 SPEAKER_03: Another option is to do what's called oxyfuel combustion. 00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.360 SPEAKER_03: And you should take air and you separate out the CO2. 00:45:13.360 --> 00:45:14.360 SPEAKER_03: Oh, sorry. 00:45:14.360 --> 00:45:17.320 SPEAKER_03: You separate out the oxygen-nitrogen that way, an air separation unit, 00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:20.639 SPEAKER_03: and into the oxygen you combust it with the carbon. 00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.159 SPEAKER_03: So in all these cases, you're actually producing CO2, 00:45:23.159 --> 00:45:27.760 SPEAKER_03: which has been separated in some form from another gas. 00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.400 SPEAKER_03: And that gas separation step is what's expensive. 00:45:31.400 --> 00:45:34.480 SPEAKER_03: It takes energy and it takes capital. 00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:39.800 Unknown: But most of the fossil fuels today are combusted in the post-combustion process. 00:45:39.800 --> 00:45:44.880 SPEAKER_03: And so that's what most of the attention is focused on for CCS. 00:45:44.880 --> 00:45:48.640 SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of research going on in the other areas at EPRI and other places 00:45:48.640 --> 00:45:51.920 SPEAKER_03: that will focus mostly on post-combustion. 00:45:51.920 --> 00:45:55.000 SPEAKER_03: The project which you're potentially involved with, with CalPine, 00:45:55.000 --> 00:46:00.320 SPEAKER_03: is one example of looking at post-combustion capture. 00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:02.480 Unknown: Fuel cells are another option, certainly. 00:46:02.480 --> 00:46:05.519 SPEAKER_03: In the fuel cell case, there's different kinds of fuel cells. 00:46:05.519 --> 00:46:09.080 SPEAKER_03: There's proton exchange membranes. 00:46:09.079 --> 00:46:12.559 SPEAKER_03: And then there's also things like solid oxide fuel cells. 00:46:12.559 --> 00:46:14.719 SPEAKER_03: Some of them are more mature than the other ones are. 00:46:14.719 --> 00:46:16.719 SPEAKER_03: But in generally speaking, the separation step 00:46:16.719 --> 00:46:19.000 SPEAKER_03: happens within the fuel cell itself. 00:46:19.000 --> 00:46:19.759 SPEAKER_03: It's not free. 00:46:19.759 --> 00:46:21.480 SPEAKER_03: It's not magic. 00:46:21.480 --> 00:46:24.440 SPEAKER_03: But it just adds additional cost and complexity. 00:46:24.440 --> 00:46:27.319 SPEAKER_03: So depending on which options people have in mind, 00:46:27.319 --> 00:46:31.119 SPEAKER_03: all these options are available. 00:46:31.119 --> 00:46:34.279 SPEAKER_03: As I mentioned, we'll focus primarily on, at least in this talk, 00:46:34.279 --> 00:46:35.880 SPEAKER_03: I'm happy to answer questions. 00:46:35.880 --> 00:46:39.960 SPEAKER_03: And the other one, certainly, looking at post-combustion CO2 capture 00:46:39.960 --> 00:46:42.760 SPEAKER_03: from natural gas power plants. 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.400 SPEAKER_03: And the right figure shows you three different options. 00:46:45.400 --> 00:46:47.240 SPEAKER_03: And there are certainly more. 00:46:47.240 --> 00:46:50.000 SPEAKER_03: The most prominent option is solvent-based, 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:55.320 SPEAKER_03: in which you take flue gas, which contains CO2, and nitrogen, 00:46:55.320 --> 00:46:56.119 SPEAKER_03: and other things. 00:46:56.119 --> 00:47:00.079 SPEAKER_03: And you react the CO2 with a chemical solvent. 00:47:00.079 --> 00:47:04.200 SPEAKER_03: And what that chemical solvent does is that it selectively reacts with CO2. 00:47:04.199 --> 00:47:08.960 SPEAKER_03: And it grabs it from the flue gas stream. 00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:12.839 SPEAKER_03: And then it actually just flows down a column. 00:47:12.839 --> 00:47:15.399 SPEAKER_03: And you take that captured CO2 solvent solution. 00:47:15.399 --> 00:47:17.799 SPEAKER_03: You put it into another column, which is called a stripper, 00:47:17.799 --> 00:47:20.239 SPEAKER_03: or it's called a regenerator. 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:22.239 SPEAKER_03: And you apply heat. 00:47:22.239 --> 00:47:24.639 SPEAKER_03: And that heat liberates the CO2. 00:47:24.639 --> 00:47:27.559 SPEAKER_03: And then you put the solvent back into the absorber column. 00:47:27.559 --> 00:47:31.039 SPEAKER_03: So the solvent actually does a circulation loop, 00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:34.000 SPEAKER_03: grabbing CO2 in one column and releasing the other. 00:47:34.119 --> 00:47:36.760 SPEAKER_03: And the other column is where you put in heat. 00:47:36.760 --> 00:47:39.719 SPEAKER_03: You can do the same thing, not with a solvent, but with a solid particle. 00:47:39.719 --> 00:47:43.320 SPEAKER_03: You can imagine you can have little beads, which react with CO2. 00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.519 SPEAKER_03: So that's a slightly different process. 00:47:45.519 --> 00:47:48.280 SPEAKER_03: But it involves the same kind of idea. 00:47:48.280 --> 00:47:53.119 SPEAKER_03: You grab the CO2 in one container, and you release it in the other container 00:47:53.119 --> 00:47:55.400 SPEAKER_03: by applying heat. 00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:57.039 SPEAKER_03: And then you have things like membranes. 00:47:57.039 --> 00:47:59.039 SPEAKER_03: And we should really apply heat to it. 00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.400 SPEAKER_03: You apply a pressure. 00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:05.599 SPEAKER_03: You can apply a vacuum, or you can apply some kind of pressure 00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:10.440 SPEAKER_03: to separate the CO2, provided the membrane is selective for CO2. 00:48:10.440 --> 00:48:11.920 SPEAKER_03: So those are different ways to do this. 00:48:11.920 --> 00:48:14.960 SPEAKER_03: There's other approaches as well, including things like cryogenics, 00:48:14.960 --> 00:48:18.320 SPEAKER_03: where you cool everything down, and you precipitate out the CO2. 00:48:18.320 --> 00:48:18.800 SPEAKER_08: I'm sorry. 00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:20.320 SPEAKER_08: I couldn't understand that last bit. 00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:21.639 SPEAKER_08: Cryogenics? 00:48:21.639 --> 00:48:25.960 SPEAKER_03: Cryogenic means that you cool things down enough 00:48:25.960 --> 00:48:28.360 SPEAKER_03: that the CO2 precipitates out. 00:48:28.360 --> 00:48:31.240 SPEAKER_03: So you literally operate at negative temperatures that way. 00:48:31.959 --> 00:48:34.319 SPEAKER_08: Could you describe what are the solvents you're talking about? 00:48:34.319 --> 00:48:36.879 SPEAKER_08: What kind of chemical solvents are pulling the CO2 out? 00:48:36.879 --> 00:48:37.359 SPEAKER_03: Yeah. 00:48:37.359 --> 00:48:41.719 SPEAKER_03: So most of the chemical solvents are what's called aqueous amines. 00:48:41.719 --> 00:48:44.439 SPEAKER_03: So they're water-based amine solvents. 00:48:44.439 --> 00:48:48.359 SPEAKER_03: Amines are essentially they have a nitrogen group and some other groups 00:48:48.359 --> 00:48:50.799 SPEAKER_03: to it, which makes it slightly basic. 00:48:50.799 --> 00:48:52.879 SPEAKER_03: And I think you're a chemist. 00:48:52.879 --> 00:48:55.719 SPEAKER_03: And so the CO2 is slightly acidic. 00:48:55.719 --> 00:48:57.919 SPEAKER_03: So there's an acid-based reaction. 00:48:57.919 --> 00:48:59.879 SPEAKER_03: And it's weak enough that it absorbs it. 00:48:59.880 --> 00:49:02.400 SPEAKER_03: And then you can regenerate it that way. 00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:05.960 SPEAKER_03: And different companies have different flavors for amines. 00:49:05.960 --> 00:49:08.720 SPEAKER_03: And that's what kind of separates one from the other. 00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:10.840 SPEAKER_03: They have intellectual property around them. 00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:11.840 SPEAKER_03: Thank you. 00:49:11.840 --> 00:49:14.960 SPEAKER_03: There's certainly an entire class of next-generation solvents 00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:18.200 SPEAKER_03: being developed, sort of like when next generation geothermal is. 00:49:18.200 --> 00:49:22.039 SPEAKER_03: But those solvent chemistries are further behind than aqueous amines. 00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:27.519 Unknown: Because sometimes some people hear the word solvent. 00:49:27.519 --> 00:49:30.639 SPEAKER_08: They think it's highly caustic and dangerous. 00:49:30.639 --> 00:49:33.079 SPEAKER_08: So I just wanted to make sure people knew. 00:49:33.079 --> 00:49:37.440 SPEAKER_03: No, but I do want to point out that there are emissions associated with them. 00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:40.360 SPEAKER_03: So you do have to look at carefully those things with it as well. 00:49:40.360 --> 00:49:42.800 SPEAKER_03: And so, yeah, they're not, I'm not going to say they're like water. 00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:44.280 SPEAKER_03: But they're water-based. 00:49:44.280 --> 00:49:46.719 SPEAKER_03: But there's chemical solvents there which do the reaction. 00:49:46.719 --> 00:49:50.320 SPEAKER_03: So you have to look at the health and environmental impacts as well. 00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:52.840 SPEAKER_02: Thank you. 00:49:52.840 --> 00:49:53.920 Unknown: Sure. 00:49:53.920 --> 00:49:56.960 SPEAKER_09: Just like, I got a thing from the past. 00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:00.240 SPEAKER_09: I think I'm really sort of curious about how, 00:50:00.240 --> 00:50:03.440 SPEAKER_09: what is the status of the research on these solvents? 00:50:03.440 --> 00:50:08.760 SPEAKER_09: And is it, I mean, we've known how to capture these things chemically for a long time. 00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:14.440 SPEAKER_09: But is that research moving forward into scalability and cost-effectiveness? 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:17.679 SPEAKER_09: Or is the technology largely sort of developed and stagnant? 00:50:20.840 --> 00:50:22.800 SPEAKER_03: Let me, we're going to talk a little bit more about this. 00:50:22.800 --> 00:50:27.680 SPEAKER_03: But the biggest challenge is really not a technology problem. 00:50:27.680 --> 00:50:32.960 SPEAKER_03: The biggest challenge is a mechanism to make it commercial. 00:50:32.960 --> 00:50:35.280 SPEAKER_03: And you'll see costs later on. 00:50:35.280 --> 00:50:37.080 SPEAKER_03: But these are expensive. 00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:42.760 SPEAKER_03: And there's really no market mechanism today to kind of get those costs back, 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:44.240 SPEAKER_03: largely speaking. 00:50:44.240 --> 00:50:47.680 SPEAKER_03: And there's very little regulatory drivers as well. 00:50:47.680 --> 00:50:50.360 SPEAKER_03: So the technology is really not the problem. 00:50:50.360 --> 00:50:53.240 SPEAKER_03: It's really the problem of market mechanisms to enable it. 00:50:53.240 --> 00:50:55.680 SPEAKER_03: And there's a few installations out there in the world. 00:50:55.680 --> 00:50:57.440 SPEAKER_03: And we'll talk about those. 00:50:57.440 --> 00:51:00.640 SPEAKER_03: In terms of the research going on, there's certainly a lot of active research at EPRI 00:51:00.640 --> 00:51:03.840 SPEAKER_03: and other places as well, developing new solvents. 00:51:03.840 --> 00:51:06.720 SPEAKER_03: But actually, after a while, they become stagnant primarily 00:51:06.720 --> 00:51:10.160 SPEAKER_03: because the investments needed to move them up. 00:51:10.160 --> 00:51:13.880 SPEAKER_03: There's really no driver for it, especially currently. 00:51:13.880 --> 00:51:16.960 SPEAKER_03: The US Department of Energy has taken a different approach, 00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:18.920 SPEAKER_03: as you all no doubt know. 00:51:18.920 --> 00:51:22.840 SPEAKER_03: And a lot of those research projects have been canceled, including many of ours. 00:51:33.159 --> 00:51:39.880 SPEAKER_03: So some of the things which people should consider for initial factors for CCS. 00:51:39.880 --> 00:51:43.400 SPEAKER_03: On the capture side, there's things like how much flue gas do you have? 00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:44.760 SPEAKER_03: What's the CO2 concentration? 00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:48.920 SPEAKER_03: Typically, it's around 3% to 4% for natural gas combined cycle. 00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:52.480 SPEAKER_03: Impurities, if there's any kind of land area available. 00:51:52.480 --> 00:51:53.760 SPEAKER_03: These are important factors. 00:51:53.760 --> 00:51:54.520 SPEAKER_03: Cooling, certainly. 00:51:54.520 --> 00:51:57.080 SPEAKER_03: Capture technology, maturity of technology. 00:51:57.080 --> 00:52:02.320 SPEAKER_03: And there's a whole laundry list to consider for looking at CCS. 00:52:02.320 --> 00:52:06.240 SPEAKER_03: On the transport and storage side, we'll certainly hear more from Carmen Terevald. 00:52:06.240 --> 00:52:10.720 SPEAKER_03: But things like how far is the distance between the transport, 00:52:10.719 --> 00:52:14.799 SPEAKER_03: sorry, between the reservoir and the source, the power plant? 00:52:14.799 --> 00:52:16.119 SPEAKER_03: What kind of transport makes sense? 00:52:16.119 --> 00:52:20.679 SPEAKER_03: Pipelines usually are the ones that make sense for large-scale emitters. 00:52:20.679 --> 00:52:24.239 SPEAKER_03: But certainly inside Europe, there's also ship transport as well. 00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:27.839 SPEAKER_03: Obviously, things like rights of ways and the reservoir characteristics, capacity, 00:52:27.839 --> 00:52:30.439 SPEAKER_03: permeability, porosity, and so on. 00:52:30.439 --> 00:52:33.799 SPEAKER_03: And long-term liability, what happens to the CO2 long-term? 00:52:33.799 --> 00:52:37.119 SPEAKER_03: And generally, community acceptance is a bigger issue on the transport and 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:39.039 SPEAKER_03: storage than it is on the capture side. 00:52:40.039 --> 00:52:44.239 Unknown: I do want to point out that the capture tends to dominate the cost for CCS. 00:52:44.239 --> 00:52:49.400 SPEAKER_03: And so that's really where a lot of the R&D is happening for reducing costs. 00:52:49.400 --> 00:52:49.920 Unknown: Okay? 00:52:53.759 --> 00:52:58.159 Unknown: Globally, this is a plot from the Global CCS Institute. 00:52:58.159 --> 00:53:02.119 SPEAKER_03: This is showing essentially all kinds of CCS, not just for power. 00:53:02.119 --> 00:53:04.920 SPEAKER_03: Well, power is actually very, very small. 00:53:04.920 --> 00:53:07.239 SPEAKER_03: CCS has been around for at least a century. 00:53:07.359 --> 00:53:11.199 SPEAKER_03: It's widely practiced in the natural gas processing industry. 00:53:11.199 --> 00:53:13.719 SPEAKER_03: Natural gas coming out of the ground often has CO2 in it, 00:53:13.719 --> 00:53:15.479 SPEAKER_03: along with other contaminants. 00:53:15.479 --> 00:53:19.599 SPEAKER_03: So use the same chemistry, the same kind of process to take out CO2. 00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:24.159 SPEAKER_03: And then you sell the natural gas and you put the CO2 away. 00:53:25.479 --> 00:53:28.959 SPEAKER_03: The advantage for natural gas processing is that the natural gas is already at very 00:53:28.959 --> 00:53:30.159 SPEAKER_03: high pressure. 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:33.639 SPEAKER_03: So that separation is much easier to do than it is for a power plant, 00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:36.919 SPEAKER_03: where the flue gas is at atmospheric pressure. 00:53:36.920 --> 00:53:42.039 SPEAKER_03: So the green bars there at the very bottom are commercial operating today. 00:53:42.039 --> 00:53:47.480 SPEAKER_03: The next several go up and sink at various levels of development. 00:53:47.480 --> 00:53:51.960 SPEAKER_03: And so generally speaking, you'll see the green bars going slowly up over time, 00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:54.400 SPEAKER_03: and the other ones are much higher. 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:57.800 SPEAKER_03: So a fraction of those usually convert, and a lot depends again on the markets 00:53:57.800 --> 00:53:58.920 SPEAKER_03: needed. 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.559 SPEAKER_03: I do want to stress again that this is all types of CCS, 00:54:02.559 --> 00:54:07.239 SPEAKER_03: and really for industrial and natural gas processing, very low on power. 00:54:07.239 --> 00:54:09.840 SPEAKER_03: And I'll show you some examples here. 00:54:09.840 --> 00:54:11.239 SPEAKER_03: But it is a mature technology. 00:54:11.239 --> 00:54:14.320 SPEAKER_03: It's been out there for at least 100 years. 00:54:14.320 --> 00:54:21.320 SPEAKER_09: So what is this graph showing us on the, I can't read the accuracy. 00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:23.320 SPEAKER_09: What's going on? 00:54:23.320 --> 00:54:24.000 SPEAKER_09: Yeah, sorry. 00:54:24.000 --> 00:54:29.519 SPEAKER_03: The y-axis is the amount of metric tons per year of CO2 being captured and stored. 00:54:29.519 --> 00:54:32.279 SPEAKER_03: And the x-axis is the year. 00:54:32.320 --> 00:54:34.960 SPEAKER_03: And I think that goes to 2025 or 2024. 00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:38.880 SPEAKER_09: So basically saying storage has gone way, way up in the last five years. 00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:39.880 SPEAKER_09: No. 00:54:39.880 --> 00:54:44.360 SPEAKER_03: Well, again, the green ones are the ones which are operating. 00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:46.280 SPEAKER_03: The green bars are the ones which are operating. 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:49.280 SPEAKER_03: So I'd say it's been growing slowly. 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:53.720 SPEAKER_03: But certainly the amount of work in terms of analysis and so on, 00:54:53.720 --> 00:54:55.360 SPEAKER_03: that's the rest of the multiples. 00:54:55.360 --> 00:54:57.920 SPEAKER_09: So there's a lot planned and in progress. 00:54:57.920 --> 00:54:59.800 SPEAKER_09: There's a lot planned and in progress. 00:54:59.800 --> 00:55:00.320 SPEAKER_09: Yeah. 00:55:00.360 --> 00:55:02.960 SPEAKER_09: The green bar hasn't changed a whole lot. 00:55:02.960 --> 00:55:03.960 Unknown: Right. 00:55:03.960 --> 00:55:04.960 Unknown: Correct. 00:55:04.960 --> 00:55:05.960 SPEAKER_09: Relatively. 00:55:05.960 --> 00:55:06.960 SPEAKER_03: That's correct. 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:11.440 SPEAKER_03: So some of those we'll convert over and many of them will not. 00:55:11.440 --> 00:55:12.440 SPEAKER_05: Thank you. 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:13.440 SPEAKER_03: Yep. 00:55:13.440 --> 00:55:18.480 Unknown: When you take a look at what's actually happening on power plants, 00:55:18.480 --> 00:55:21.440 SPEAKER_03: these are the post-commission ones. 00:55:21.440 --> 00:55:22.960 SPEAKER_03: There's actually three on coal. 00:55:22.960 --> 00:55:25.440 SPEAKER_03: Actually, there should be one more fourth on coal. 00:55:25.440 --> 00:55:28.200 SPEAKER_03: The first one in the world was done in Canada, a Saskatchewan. 00:55:28.199 --> 00:55:30.480 SPEAKER_03: It's about 115 megawatts. 00:55:30.480 --> 00:55:34.079 SPEAKER_03: It's been running for about 10 years, maybe 12 years or so. 00:55:34.079 --> 00:55:37.719 SPEAKER_03: And the fate of the CO2, if you will, is enhanced oil recovery. 00:55:37.719 --> 00:55:41.879 SPEAKER_03: So in this case, you actually inject CO2 into oil reservoirs to get more oil out. 00:55:41.879 --> 00:55:45.839 SPEAKER_03: And that helps pay for some of the costs for capture. 00:55:45.839 --> 00:55:47.279 SPEAKER_03: These are first of a kind, if you will. 00:55:47.279 --> 00:55:49.960 SPEAKER_03: So you have to kind of do financing in this way. 00:55:49.960 --> 00:55:54.159 SPEAKER_03: EOR is not a permanent solution for CO2. 00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:57.719 SPEAKER_03: The volume is enhanced oil recovery. 00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:02.319 SPEAKER_03: Actually, I should also clarify here, which I'm sure Carbon-Terrifold will speak on, California 00:56:02.319 --> 00:56:07.000 SPEAKER_03: does not allow captured CO2 to be used for enhanced oil recovery. 00:56:07.000 --> 00:56:11.639 SPEAKER_03: So for California, that's not an option. 00:56:11.639 --> 00:56:18.359 SPEAKER_03: The other option, sorry, the other large facility is again on coal that was in Texas. 00:56:18.359 --> 00:56:23.599 SPEAKER_03: It's a company called Inos Xlora. 00:56:23.599 --> 00:56:24.959 SPEAKER_03: And that's outside of Houston. 00:56:24.959 --> 00:56:27.559 SPEAKER_03: It's about twice the size of Boundary Dam. 00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:32.199 SPEAKER_03: It's been running again for about 10 years or so, also EOR. 00:56:32.199 --> 00:56:33.719 SPEAKER_03: And then there's two coal plants. 00:56:33.719 --> 00:56:36.639 SPEAKER_03: I just listed one in China. 00:56:36.639 --> 00:56:38.599 SPEAKER_03: One of them is in Longdong. 00:56:38.599 --> 00:56:40.279 SPEAKER_03: And then that's just started up. 00:56:40.279 --> 00:56:42.199 SPEAKER_03: And it's going to scale up pretty quickly. 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:46.960 SPEAKER_03: They're also using EOR for it or some other use for CO2. 00:56:46.960 --> 00:56:51.920 SPEAKER_03: The only gas one, which is currently being planned, or even in commercial operations, 00:56:51.920 --> 00:56:55.320 SPEAKER_03: there's nothing in commercial for gas today. 00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:56.679 SPEAKER_03: So this is being built right now. 00:56:56.679 --> 00:56:58.839 SPEAKER_03: It should be ready by 2028. 00:56:58.839 --> 00:57:01.440 SPEAKER_03: And this is a project called T-SIDE. 00:57:01.440 --> 00:57:05.199 SPEAKER_03: And it's got BP and Equinor and several other partners inside of it. 00:57:05.199 --> 00:57:08.639 SPEAKER_03: That's going to be hopefully completed in 2028. 00:57:08.639 --> 00:57:12.639 SPEAKER_03: And then the fate of the CO2 there is actually offshore geological storage up in the North 00:57:12.639 --> 00:57:16.440 SPEAKER_03: Sea. 00:57:16.440 --> 00:57:18.279 SPEAKER_03: And this is the extent of power. 00:57:18.279 --> 00:57:20.480 SPEAKER_03: Again, there's one missing from China. 00:57:20.480 --> 00:57:25.159 SPEAKER_03: But that's also in coal. 00:57:26.159 --> 00:57:32.159 Unknown: These are some of the costs for essentially new build. 00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:36.960 SPEAKER_03: So if you're building a new power plant with CCS on it, these numbers are from the US Department 00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:37.960 SPEAKER_03: of Energy. 00:57:37.960 --> 00:57:38.960 SPEAKER_03: They're fairly widely cited. 00:57:38.960 --> 00:57:41.399 SPEAKER_03: So I kind of repeated them here. 00:57:41.399 --> 00:57:44.960 SPEAKER_03: The left three bars are looking at coal, which we won't pay much attention to, if you will. 00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:49.759 SPEAKER_03: The right three bars are looking at an F-class and GCC. 00:57:49.759 --> 00:57:53.119 SPEAKER_03: The lowest one of those is looking at no capture. 00:57:53.119 --> 00:57:54.119 SPEAKER_03: And the Y-axis is LCOE. 00:57:54.119 --> 00:57:57.440 SPEAKER_03: It's the levelized cost of electricity. 00:57:57.440 --> 00:58:01.719 SPEAKER_03: So in the case of no cost, sorry, that's kind of your baseline plant. 00:58:01.719 --> 00:58:07.039 SPEAKER_03: So the LCOE is around $47 per megawatt hour. 00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:12.199 SPEAKER_03: And then the next two bars are looking at carbon capture at 90 percent capture and 95 00:58:12.199 --> 00:58:13.199 SPEAKER_03: percent capture. 00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:16.679 Unknown: So you'll see that the cost actually goes up. 00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:23.239 SPEAKER_03: And it goes up around 80 percent or so when you add carbon capture to it. 00:58:23.239 --> 00:58:28.439 SPEAKER_03: And then the table on the right, if you will, shows you some other numbers. 00:58:28.439 --> 00:58:34.359 SPEAKER_03: I do want to point out that the efficiency reduction there with CCS is about 11 percent. 00:58:34.359 --> 00:58:40.399 SPEAKER_03: So if you're going to add CCS to your NGCC power plant, expect about an 11 percent, maybe 00:58:40.399 --> 00:58:42.639 SPEAKER_03: 12 percent efficiency reduction. 00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:48.479 Unknown: And that happens because you're taking away energy from the power plant to heat up the 00:58:48.479 --> 00:58:49.479 SPEAKER_03: solvent. 00:58:49.479 --> 00:58:50.939 SPEAKER_03: And that takes up. 00:58:50.939 --> 00:58:52.599 SPEAKER_03: That takes away steam from the turbines. 00:58:52.839 --> 00:58:54.839 SPEAKER_03: That puts into the carbon capture process. 00:58:56.679 --> 00:59:01.960 SPEAKER_08: Give us the average because we've heard there's a big parasitic load for this. 00:59:01.960 --> 00:59:02.960 SPEAKER_08: What is that? 00:59:02.960 --> 00:59:05.719 SPEAKER_08: Is it like a quarter of what the power plant is producing? 00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:09.360 SPEAKER_08: A quarter is about true for coal, but not for natural gas. 00:59:09.360 --> 00:59:11.599 SPEAKER_03: Natural gas is going to be around 11, 12 percent. 00:59:11.599 --> 00:59:12.599 SPEAKER_08: 11, 12 percent. 00:59:12.599 --> 00:59:13.599 SPEAKER_08: Okay, thank you. 00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:14.599 Unknown: Mm-hmm. 00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:16.199 Unknown: But there's hardware involved. 00:59:16.199 --> 00:59:17.199 SPEAKER_03: The hardware is pretty expensive. 00:59:17.199 --> 00:59:21.199 SPEAKER_03: In fact, it's on the same order magnitude as the power plant. 00:59:21.199 --> 00:59:25.439 SPEAKER_03: So yeah, so that's the other cost factor to consider. 00:59:25.439 --> 00:59:31.079 SPEAKER_03: And you look at everything, the LCOE increases by about 80 percent or so. 00:59:31.079 --> 00:59:34.960 SPEAKER_03: Obviously, there's a lot of R&D going on to reduce these costs. 00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:38.119 SPEAKER_03: If you look at very early stage technologies, there's a lot of optimism. 00:59:38.119 --> 00:59:43.679 SPEAKER_03: But having done this for close to 20 years now, as technologies scale up, all kinds of 00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:47.039 SPEAKER_03: challenges, realistic things happen, and all kinds of stuff happens. 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.480 SPEAKER_03: So I think these are, I'd say, typical numbers from the U.S. Department of Energy. 00:59:50.719 --> 00:59:55.519 SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of site-specific examples which are in the same ballpark, and I'll show you 00:59:55.519 --> 00:59:56.519 SPEAKER_03: some of those. 01:00:00.119 --> 01:00:05.719 SPEAKER_03: The DOE funded several feed studies, funded engineering design studies, probably so far 01:00:05.719 --> 01:00:10.000 SPEAKER_03: maybe about 20 of them, maybe perhaps. 01:00:10.000 --> 01:00:13.079 SPEAKER_03: They forget the coal ones again, but look at the right side ones. 01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:15.599 SPEAKER_03: These are the natural gas combined cycle. 01:00:15.599 --> 01:00:16.880 SPEAKER_03: And these are retrofits. 01:00:16.880 --> 01:00:18.559 SPEAKER_03: These are all for existing power plants. 01:00:18.559 --> 01:00:25.599 SPEAKER_03: There was one which we did with CRC, a few years ago, maybe four or five years ago. 01:00:25.599 --> 01:00:30.400 Unknown: And on the bottom, you'll see the capital cost involved at that time was about $750 01:00:30.400 --> 01:00:34.639 SPEAKER_03: million in the same order of magnitude at that time as a power plant, and cost has certainly 01:00:34.639 --> 01:00:36.960 SPEAKER_03: escalated since then. 01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:39.320 SPEAKER_03: All of these are using aqueous amines. 01:00:39.320 --> 01:00:43.159 SPEAKER_03: These different companies had used different flavors of the aqueous amines working with 01:00:43.159 --> 01:00:45.079 SPEAKER_03: different vendors. 01:00:45.079 --> 01:00:48.039 SPEAKER_03: And so they're in the same kind of ballpark range for it. 01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:57.440 Unknown: So the previous slide for this one, can you give me a minute to digest it? 01:00:57.440 --> 01:00:58.440 SPEAKER_03: Sure. 01:00:58.440 --> 01:01:00.039 SPEAKER_09: Sorry, a second minute to digest it. 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:06.239 SPEAKER_09: So on the 2230F class, which is combined cycle natural gas, the two have this levelized 01:01:06.239 --> 01:01:11.840 SPEAKER_09: cost of $82.84, and so the one in the middle is $47. 01:01:11.840 --> 01:01:17.880 SPEAKER_09: Is that flowing into the next slide? 01:01:17.880 --> 01:01:24.800 SPEAKER_09: These are, so like why is one black box half the cost than the other, I guess? 01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:26.559 SPEAKER_09: I'm sorry, that's the question. 01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:29.039 SPEAKER_09: Why is it one so much less, the one that says $47? 01:01:29.039 --> 01:01:30.360 SPEAKER_09: Oh, that's the base plan. 01:01:30.360 --> 01:01:31.680 SPEAKER_03: There is no CCS on it. 01:01:31.680 --> 01:01:32.680 SPEAKER_03: Okay. 01:01:32.680 --> 01:01:36.800 SPEAKER_09: So we should be looking at the blue bar. 01:01:36.800 --> 01:01:39.079 SPEAKER_09: Is that the cost of the carbon gas? 01:01:39.079 --> 01:01:40.680 SPEAKER_09: You can just come up here. 01:01:40.680 --> 01:01:41.680 Unknown: Yeah, yeah. 01:01:42.519 --> 01:01:45.519 SPEAKER_03: So this is the base plan, the CCS on it. 01:01:45.519 --> 01:01:47.919 SPEAKER_03: So the first cost is $47. 01:01:47.919 --> 01:01:48.919 SPEAKER_03: Okay. 01:01:48.919 --> 01:01:49.919 SPEAKER_03: And with the CCS, it jumps. 01:01:49.919 --> 01:01:50.919 SPEAKER_09: Right. 01:01:50.919 --> 01:01:55.919 SPEAKER_09: It's the 90% capture, and this is the 90%. 01:01:55.919 --> 01:01:56.919 SPEAKER_03: Okay, okay. 01:01:56.919 --> 01:01:57.919 SPEAKER_09: Sorry, all right. 01:01:57.919 --> 01:02:01.440 SPEAKER_09: We need you to stay with the microphone so the public can hear me. 01:02:01.440 --> 01:02:02.440 SPEAKER_08: Sorry, sorry, sorry. 01:02:02.440 --> 01:02:03.440 SPEAKER_09: I'm getting in trouble. 01:02:03.440 --> 01:02:04.440 SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so let me just repeat that. 01:02:04.440 --> 01:02:06.440 SPEAKER_03: So the lowest graph is no capture case. 01:02:06.440 --> 01:02:07.440 SPEAKER_03: It's the base plan. 01:02:07.880 --> 01:02:11.720 SPEAKER_03: The one immediately to the right is that 90% capture, and then the one to the right of 01:02:11.720 --> 01:02:13.720 SPEAKER_03: that is 95% capture. 01:02:13.720 --> 01:02:15.320 SPEAKER_09: And then we have the percentage on the right. 01:02:15.320 --> 01:02:16.320 SPEAKER_09: That makes sense. 01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:17.320 SPEAKER_03: Right. 01:02:17.320 --> 01:02:19.599 SPEAKER_03: And one thing I forgot to mention here is the cost for capture. 01:02:19.599 --> 01:02:22.519 SPEAKER_03: It's around $85 a ton. 01:02:22.519 --> 01:02:26.519 SPEAKER_03: Again, base case, design basis for USDOE. 01:02:26.519 --> 01:02:27.519 Unknown: Okay. 01:02:27.519 --> 01:02:33.519 Unknown: Yeah, that one's a really tough under-age. 01:02:33.599 --> 01:02:38.599 SPEAKER_08: A lot of numbers are there, but I do want to kind of re-emphasize this. 01:02:38.599 --> 01:02:45.599 SPEAKER_03: About 85 dollars a ton, about 11%, 12% parasitic load, and the LCV will go up by about 80%. 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:46.599 Unknown: Okay. 01:02:46.599 --> 01:02:47.599 Unknown: Okay. 01:02:47.599 --> 01:02:55.320 SPEAKER_09: That is consistent with our previous sort of sessions on carbon capture in previous 01:02:55.320 --> 01:03:00.360 SPEAKER_09: years though, for sure, if not a little bit lower than some of the numbers we were given. 01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:03.559 SPEAKER_03: I gave one a while ago, so hopefully you get a different perspective. 01:03:03.559 --> 01:03:04.559 SPEAKER_03: But these numbers are from DOE. 01:03:04.559 --> 01:03:07.559 SPEAKER_03: I'd have to figure it out for a few minutes to find the old presentations. 01:03:07.559 --> 01:03:08.559 SPEAKER_09: Okay. 01:03:08.559 --> 01:03:09.559 SPEAKER_09: Go ahead. 01:03:09.559 --> 01:03:10.559 Unknown: Keep going. 01:03:10.559 --> 01:03:11.559 Unknown: Thank you. 01:03:11.559 --> 01:03:12.559 SPEAKER_03: Have we talked about this slide? 01:03:12.559 --> 01:03:13.559 Unknown: Mm-hmm. 01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:20.440 Unknown: One thing is that there's been some discussion around this capture percentage. 01:03:20.440 --> 01:03:27.440 SPEAKER_03: Most people think that 90% capture or 95% capture is somehow the limit, and the 5% or 01:03:27.440 --> 01:03:29.440 SPEAKER_03: 10% is let go. 01:03:29.519 --> 01:03:32.000 SPEAKER_03: There's really no technical reason to do that. 01:03:32.000 --> 01:03:36.280 SPEAKER_03: You can actually ramp up the capture rate to be very, very high. 01:03:36.280 --> 01:03:37.280 SPEAKER_03: So we did this piece of work. 01:03:37.280 --> 01:03:39.960 SPEAKER_03: Again, it's a paper study for us. 01:03:39.960 --> 01:03:44.260 SPEAKER_03: Looking at essentially pushing the capture rates up to essentially 100%, so whatever 01:03:44.260 --> 01:03:49.840 SPEAKER_03: combustion area you're putting in, 425 ppm from the atmosphere of CO2, is basically what 01:03:49.840 --> 01:03:51.320 SPEAKER_03: you get out of the power plant. 01:03:51.320 --> 01:03:56.159 SPEAKER_03: So you push the capture rates up to be 99-plus percentage, and the question was, what do 01:03:56.159 --> 01:03:57.159 SPEAKER_03: we see? 01:03:57.159 --> 01:03:58.159 Unknown: All right. 01:03:59.159 --> 01:04:07.599 Unknown: So again, on the bar graphs there, this is the cost for capture at different percentage 01:04:07.599 --> 01:04:08.599 SPEAKER_03: capture rates. 01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:10.960 SPEAKER_03: And don't worry about the different colors. 01:04:10.960 --> 01:04:13.199 SPEAKER_03: Those are different process configurations with it. 01:04:13.199 --> 01:04:20.000 SPEAKER_03: But you'll see that it is possible to go up to 99.8%, 99.7% capture. 01:04:20.000 --> 01:04:25.480 SPEAKER_03: The zero emission case right there, this is for NGCC, is about 97.7% capture. 01:04:25.480 --> 01:04:29.599 SPEAKER_03: What that means is that whatever CO2 you're putting into the atmosphere from your combustion 01:04:29.599 --> 01:04:31.240 SPEAKER_03: is basically what's coming out. 01:04:31.240 --> 01:04:34.719 SPEAKER_03: So all the fossil CO2 is being captured. 01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:36.079 SPEAKER_03: And then you can actually push it higher. 01:04:36.079 --> 01:04:38.639 SPEAKER_03: You can go into negative emissions, if you will. 01:04:38.639 --> 01:04:41.360 Unknown: It sounds crazy, but that's the reality. 01:04:41.360 --> 01:04:42.920 SPEAKER_03: And again, we've done some testing. 01:04:42.920 --> 01:04:48.240 SPEAKER_03: We and others have done testing at some pilot plants, both in Alabama as well as in Norway. 01:04:48.240 --> 01:04:51.119 SPEAKER_03: And they're consistently showing that not just with one solvent, you can do that with 01:04:51.119 --> 01:04:55.400 SPEAKER_03: many solvents or other systems as well. 01:04:55.720 --> 01:05:01.320 SPEAKER_03: This is important because many people think that at 90, 95% or so, you're going to have 01:05:01.320 --> 01:05:05.240 SPEAKER_03: to let the CO2 go and then use something else, like direct air capture or something else 01:05:05.240 --> 01:05:06.240 SPEAKER_03: with it. 01:05:06.240 --> 01:05:09.720 SPEAKER_03: Direct air capture turns out to be more expensive. 01:05:09.720 --> 01:05:17.200 SPEAKER_03: So increase in the capture rate may be the better option here. 01:05:17.200 --> 01:05:18.200 SPEAKER_03: This is my last slide. 01:05:18.200 --> 01:05:22.800 SPEAKER_03: I just want to point out that there's obviously federal tax credits available. 01:05:22.800 --> 01:05:26.240 SPEAKER_03: Right now, it's at $85 a ton from point sources. 01:05:26.240 --> 01:05:28.760 SPEAKER_03: The fate of the CO2 does not matter anymore. 01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:37.600 SPEAKER_03: In the OBBA, the laws were changed so that it doesn't matter if you sell the CO2, if 01:05:37.600 --> 01:05:43.560 SPEAKER_03: you use it or just bury it with sequestration, it's going to be $85 a ton. 01:05:43.560 --> 01:05:47.560 SPEAKER_03: You get $180 per ton from capture from the atmosphere. 01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:53.719 SPEAKER_03: Tax must start by January 1, 2033, essentially in the 2032. 01:05:53.719 --> 01:05:57.119 SPEAKER_03: And there's a 12-year tax credit after you start up. 01:05:57.119 --> 01:06:02.039 SPEAKER_03: And the tax credits can be direct pay or they can be transferred to folks as well. 01:06:02.039 --> 01:06:06.559 Unknown: Community engagement, I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the next speaker, but at 01:06:06.559 --> 01:06:11.599 SPEAKER_03: least in our experience, interest in CCS is highly community dependent. 01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:14.320 SPEAKER_03: Some are very much against transport and storage. 01:06:14.320 --> 01:06:15.719 SPEAKER_03: Some are very much for it. 01:06:16.039 --> 01:06:18.399 SPEAKER_03: So it really depends on the community. 01:06:18.399 --> 01:06:23.279 SPEAKER_03: It's best, obviously, just like anything else, to be early, transparent, and have 01:06:23.279 --> 01:06:26.279 SPEAKER_03: continuous engagement for it. 01:06:26.279 --> 01:06:29.480 SPEAKER_03: And it's important that people understand everything, not just the transport and storage, 01:06:29.480 --> 01:06:31.599 SPEAKER_03: but the capture, and includes benefits. 01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:36.000 SPEAKER_03: There's also, obviously, this is a climate change mitigation technology primarily, but 01:06:36.000 --> 01:06:39.399 SPEAKER_03: there's also risks involved, uncertainty, environmental impact, and so on. 01:06:39.399 --> 01:06:44.480 SPEAKER_03: So a lot of things are also important inside the community engagement part. 01:06:44.480 --> 01:06:46.840 SPEAKER_03: And with that, that's my end of my slides. 01:06:46.840 --> 01:06:48.320 SPEAKER_03: Happy to take any more questions. 01:06:49.679 --> 01:06:56.199 SPEAKER_06: Your slide indicates that the federal tax credit is $180 a ton for capturing from the 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:57.559 SPEAKER_06: atmosphere from air. 01:06:57.559 --> 01:07:00.639 SPEAKER_06: Are there technologies that do that efficiently? 01:07:00.639 --> 01:07:02.639 SPEAKER_03: Not at that price point. 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:06.480 SPEAKER_03: People will say it, but they're already staged. 01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:12.920 SPEAKER_03: At least in our estimates, I'm going to go on a limb here, probably $500 a ton at the 01:07:12.920 --> 01:07:15.240 SPEAKER_03: lower side today. 01:07:15.240 --> 01:07:19.079 SPEAKER_03: But there's companies out there who are trying to design some things. 01:07:19.079 --> 01:07:22.240 SPEAKER_03: Some even claim to be $100 per ton. 01:07:22.240 --> 01:07:26.280 SPEAKER_03: But in our analysis, that's being very aggressive. 01:07:26.280 --> 01:07:27.280 SPEAKER_03: Thank you. 01:07:29.800 --> 01:07:33.000 SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your presentation. 01:07:33.000 --> 01:07:45.039 SPEAKER_00: Would it be fair to say that because of the cost that geothermal stuff is more attractive 01:07:45.039 --> 01:07:47.760 SPEAKER_00: than carbon capture? 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:55.920 SPEAKER_03: So if you take a look at the global situation, globally we, being society, emits about 37 01:07:55.920 --> 01:07:59.039 SPEAKER_03: gigatons of CO2 annually. 01:07:59.039 --> 01:08:01.840 SPEAKER_03: Probably most of that is from the power sector. 01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:07.840 SPEAKER_03: Probably about 40, 50% or something like that. 01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:13.039 SPEAKER_03: If you take a look at other technologies, which we do, EPRI does, I do as well, so there's 01:08:13.039 --> 01:08:17.479 SPEAKER_03: certainly fusion, nuclear, all these other options out there. 01:08:17.479 --> 01:08:20.560 SPEAKER_03: So you have to do this kind of integrated assessment models. 01:08:20.560 --> 01:08:24.239 SPEAKER_03: They can be region specific, they can be global. 01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:32.679 SPEAKER_03: And you kind of look at what technology is going to be the cheapest option in this model. 01:08:32.679 --> 01:08:38.639 SPEAKER_03: And you do all kinds of analysis for assumptions, impacts, cost trajectories, whole bunch of 01:08:38.639 --> 01:08:40.960 SPEAKER_03: assumptions going there. 01:08:40.960 --> 01:08:44.119 SPEAKER_03: And then you see what scenarios play out. 01:08:44.119 --> 01:08:54.159 SPEAKER_03: So at least globally, most models predict about maybe 15%, 12%, 15% will be CCS. 01:08:54.159 --> 01:09:01.159 SPEAKER_03: The IPCC, the National Government Panel on Climate Change, that's basically done studies 01:09:01.159 --> 01:09:05.920 SPEAKER_03: showing that if you remove CCS, and EPRI has done similar work, if you remove CCS as an 01:09:05.920 --> 01:09:10.760 SPEAKER_03: option, the cost of decarbonized will probably double or triple. 01:09:10.760 --> 01:09:14.880 SPEAKER_03: So it is a cost effective mechanism to do it. 01:09:14.880 --> 01:09:18.920 SPEAKER_03: Certainly there's going to be cheaper options initially, but I think when you get to very 01:09:18.920 --> 01:09:24.680 SPEAKER_03: deep decarbonization, I don't think there's a way to escape fossil fuels without CCS. 01:09:24.680 --> 01:09:26.680 SPEAKER_03: You have to do CCS. 01:09:26.680 --> 01:09:32.600 Unknown: And have to use a strong word, but at least according to models. 01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:33.600 SPEAKER_09: Anybody else? 01:09:33.600 --> 01:09:37.920 Unknown: A little bit more of a couple questions. 01:09:37.920 --> 01:09:43.720 SPEAKER_09: One here, so it sounds like the federal, the 45Q tax credit will potentially cover the 01:09:43.720 --> 01:09:49.520 SPEAKER_09: cost of it for at least those 12 years, how the project is assembled, its capital cost, 01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:53.880 SPEAKER_09: and all those details would certainly matter. 01:09:53.880 --> 01:09:58.520 SPEAKER_09: But it would cover at least part, a big chunk of your expenditures. 01:09:58.520 --> 01:10:01.800 SPEAKER_09: Is that a fair, am I interpreting that correctly? 01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:03.840 SPEAKER_03: A couple of things there. 01:10:03.840 --> 01:10:07.000 SPEAKER_03: So one thing is this is a 12 year tax credit. 01:10:07.000 --> 01:10:08.000 SPEAKER_03: It's not 30 years. 01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:10.000 SPEAKER_03: It's not 2030, yeah. 01:10:10.000 --> 01:10:11.000 SPEAKER_03: No. 01:10:11.000 --> 01:10:13.000 SPEAKER_03: So that's one issue. 01:10:13.000 --> 01:10:16.079 SPEAKER_03: Will it recover all the costs? 01:10:16.079 --> 01:10:20.760 SPEAKER_03: At this point, I'd say probably not for most, otherwise you'd see a lot more of these projects 01:10:20.760 --> 01:10:23.199 SPEAKER_03: out there. 01:10:23.199 --> 01:10:29.159 SPEAKER_03: So there usually is some kind of agreement, obviously guys involved with some of them, 01:10:29.159 --> 01:10:32.520 SPEAKER_03: or some other mechanism to pay for the difference with it. 01:10:32.520 --> 01:10:39.119 SPEAKER_03: And just like Google and some of these other companies have announced projects for geothermal, 01:10:39.119 --> 01:10:43.880 SPEAKER_03: both Meta and Google have announced projects for CCS as well on power. 01:10:43.880 --> 01:10:47.559 SPEAKER_03: And there's a power purchase agreement with developers and so on. 01:10:47.559 --> 01:10:49.119 SPEAKER_03: But it's all just starting. 01:10:49.119 --> 01:10:51.519 SPEAKER_03: We'll see where it actually winds up. 01:10:51.519 --> 01:10:58.319 SPEAKER_09: And I really asked a little earlier, in terms of the crystal ball and looking at the future, 01:10:58.319 --> 01:11:06.000 SPEAKER_09: is there potential new technologies that would help reduce, or are there better widgets and 01:11:06.000 --> 01:11:07.000 SPEAKER_09: gadgets? 01:11:07.000 --> 01:11:14.520 SPEAKER_09: Because when you look at this, it's still almost 100% more than just the cost of generations. 01:11:14.520 --> 01:11:18.720 SPEAKER_09: I'm sort of curious, trying to predict the future is impossible. 01:11:18.720 --> 01:11:24.680 SPEAKER_03: So again, I've been at EPRI for close to 20 years, and I pretty much focused only on CCS. 01:11:24.680 --> 01:11:30.560 SPEAKER_03: So I can come at this with a longer term view. 01:11:30.560 --> 01:11:35.560 SPEAKER_03: The thermodynamics of the process, that gas separation step, there's some fundamental 01:11:35.560 --> 01:11:39.880 SPEAKER_03: energy requirements, which there's no escaping it. 01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:44.440 SPEAKER_03: So when you look at that separation step, and then you add in costs for hardware and 01:11:44.440 --> 01:11:51.039 SPEAKER_03: so on, right now I can tell you we're within a factor of two of the thermodynamic floor 01:11:51.039 --> 01:11:53.400 SPEAKER_03: for energy consumption. 01:11:53.400 --> 01:12:01.039 SPEAKER_03: So when you look at capture and compression, within a factor of two for thermodynamic minimum. 01:12:01.039 --> 01:12:05.479 SPEAKER_03: So right now I'm showing you 11% for NGCC. 01:12:05.479 --> 01:12:09.319 SPEAKER_03: The absolute minimum you need is about 5.5%. 01:12:09.319 --> 01:12:11.519 SPEAKER_03: So maybe you could drop that down slightly. 01:12:11.519 --> 01:12:15.439 SPEAKER_03: I don't think you'll drop it down that dramatically. 01:12:15.439 --> 01:12:18.279 SPEAKER_03: The rest of the cost is really just hardware. 01:12:18.279 --> 01:12:19.279 SPEAKER_03: That's steel construction. 01:12:19.279 --> 01:12:22.119 SPEAKER_03: There's really no difference than anything else. 01:12:22.119 --> 01:12:25.600 SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of refineries, same process. 01:12:25.600 --> 01:12:26.600 SPEAKER_03: So I think- 01:12:26.600 --> 01:12:27.760 SPEAKER_09: A lot of sensitivity is the reality. 01:12:27.840 --> 01:12:31.280 SPEAKER_09: I think we're- yeah, we've been able to save a little bit here and there, but it's going 01:12:31.280 --> 01:12:33.520 SPEAKER_03: to be harder and harder to do. 01:12:33.520 --> 01:12:37.680 SPEAKER_03: And we've done a lot of research on this from very academic studies all the way to potted 01:12:37.680 --> 01:12:38.680 SPEAKER_03: plants. 01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:42.119 SPEAKER_03: Early ones look promising, but as I mentioned earlier, as you kind of scale things up, even 01:12:42.119 --> 01:12:46.560 SPEAKER_03: a little bit realistic things come in and it becomes harder and harder to get to this 01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:47.560 SPEAKER_03: cost target. 01:12:47.560 --> 01:12:49.560 SPEAKER_03: So I think we're probably approaching some kind of- 01:12:49.560 --> 01:12:50.560 SPEAKER_03: Okay. 01:12:50.560 --> 01:12:56.440 SPEAKER_03: And then you're talking- you mentioned at the beginning, right, you have the fuel cell 01:12:56.439 --> 01:13:00.960 SPEAKER_09: sequestration pathway, which has popped up in the discussion a lot more than last, I 01:13:00.960 --> 01:13:02.799 SPEAKER_09: would say six to 12 months. 01:13:02.799 --> 01:13:09.399 SPEAKER_09: Do you have any- it looks like most of these numbers that we've talked about is a CCS from 01:13:09.399 --> 01:13:13.000 SPEAKER_09: either from a coal or natural gas, big plants. 01:13:13.000 --> 01:13:18.319 SPEAKER_09: Do you have any commentary about that potential of a fuel cell? 01:13:18.319 --> 01:13:19.559 SPEAKER_03: Sure. 01:13:19.559 --> 01:13:25.919 SPEAKER_03: So I just want to mention, I think I did in all these slides here, that the right side 01:13:25.920 --> 01:13:28.159 SPEAKER_03: there shows the kinds of fuel cells. 01:13:28.159 --> 01:13:31.000 SPEAKER_03: There's proton exchange membranes. 01:13:31.000 --> 01:13:37.720 SPEAKER_03: And these are typical of companies, like Bloom Energy, for instance, is one. 01:13:37.720 --> 01:13:41.159 SPEAKER_03: There's several different pen fuel cells out there. 01:13:41.159 --> 01:13:49.480 SPEAKER_03: The fuel cell itself is a way to produce electricity, and it does not really do- it kind of produces 01:13:49.480 --> 01:13:50.480 SPEAKER_03: CO2 in the process. 01:13:50.480 --> 01:13:53.880 SPEAKER_03: It's really not a capture step separate from that. 01:13:53.880 --> 01:13:56.640 SPEAKER_03: So it's inherently, let's say, built into it. 01:13:56.640 --> 01:14:00.520 SPEAKER_03: It is an expensive way to generate power, but there are commercial operations out there 01:14:00.520 --> 01:14:03.400 SPEAKER_03: that actually do it. 01:14:03.400 --> 01:14:08.279 SPEAKER_03: The solid oxide fuel cells are another option, which is a little bit behind in TRL, and those 01:14:08.279 --> 01:14:12.560 SPEAKER_03: are being developed by a company called Fuel Cell Energy, which has been collaborating 01:14:12.560 --> 01:14:15.640 SPEAKER_03: with ExxonMobil, for instance. 01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:19.000 SPEAKER_03: Interesting chemistry, but again, it's the same thing that it's using a relatively expensive 01:14:19.000 --> 01:14:21.239 SPEAKER_03: approach to do it. 01:14:21.239 --> 01:14:27.519 SPEAKER_03: So generally speaking, those are further behind in scale and readiness level, but they're 01:14:27.519 --> 01:14:29.279 SPEAKER_03: certainly within the mix. 01:14:29.279 --> 01:14:33.679 SPEAKER_03: So we'll see how those things develop over time. 01:14:33.679 --> 01:14:36.199 SPEAKER_09: Cost numbers sort of in the same ballpark, I would assume. 01:14:36.199 --> 01:14:38.719 SPEAKER_09: It's going to be higher. 01:14:38.719 --> 01:14:40.519 SPEAKER_03: Because right now, they're kind of small scale. 01:14:40.519 --> 01:14:45.199 Unknown: The only other thing- okay, that's awesome. 01:14:45.199 --> 01:14:54.479 SPEAKER_09: In terms of the list of facilities under development, I know it had the Petronova slide. 01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:58.880 SPEAKER_09: Sorry, the Petronova was on the slide, sorry. 01:14:58.880 --> 01:15:01.679 SPEAKER_09: And I just- in the back of my mind, it's been a long time now, but I remember there was 01:15:01.679 --> 01:15:05.760 SPEAKER_09: just some bad press around it. 01:15:05.760 --> 01:15:12.319 SPEAKER_09: And so I guess the highest level question is, is that facility the same basic technology 01:15:12.319 --> 01:15:15.279 SPEAKER_09: of using the flue gas through a solvent? 01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:17.920 SPEAKER_09: Yes, it is the same one. 01:15:17.920 --> 01:15:25.840 SPEAKER_03: One of the challenges, and Petronova's- the prime example, probably the only example there, 01:15:25.840 --> 01:15:29.799 SPEAKER_03: that during the pandemic, the price of oil plummeted, as you all recall, it actually 01:15:29.799 --> 01:15:31.239 SPEAKER_03: went negative. 01:15:31.239 --> 01:15:37.880 SPEAKER_03: And so the EOR portion of it didn't really do anything to pay for that service. 01:15:38.480 --> 01:15:42.840 SPEAKER_03: There's been some challenges on running the oil field with the produced CO2. 01:15:42.840 --> 01:15:46.239 SPEAKER_03: So if you don't use the CO2, you don't get the contracts. 01:15:46.239 --> 01:15:49.000 SPEAKER_03: I don't have access to those contracts, obviously. 01:15:49.000 --> 01:15:55.359 SPEAKER_03: But yeah, most of the challenges happen to be with the subsurface side of EOR and generating 01:15:55.359 --> 01:15:59.960 SPEAKER_03: the oil as opposed to the capture technology. 01:16:00.039 --> 01:16:08.560 SPEAKER_03: I was just at Petronova about maybe a year ago, and yeah, it's up and running fine. 01:16:08.560 --> 01:16:10.760 SPEAKER_03: The process itself is fine. 01:16:10.760 --> 01:16:11.760 Unknown: Thank you. 01:16:11.760 --> 01:16:13.760 Unknown: I've talked a lot. 01:16:13.760 --> 01:16:16.039 Unknown: It's really awesome. 01:16:16.039 --> 01:16:17.880 SPEAKER_08: One more quick question for me. 01:16:17.880 --> 01:16:22.880 SPEAKER_08: How much water does it take to process the CO2 out? 01:16:22.880 --> 01:16:24.399 SPEAKER_03: It's actually a very good question. 01:16:24.399 --> 01:16:34.679 SPEAKER_03: So the way to think about this is that it'll take about half of the condenser, because 01:16:34.679 --> 01:16:38.399 SPEAKER_03: what's happening is that since you're not really condensing the steam, you're sending 01:16:38.399 --> 01:16:41.399 SPEAKER_03: the steam to the carbon capture unit. 01:16:41.399 --> 01:16:43.479 SPEAKER_03: So some of the condenser duty will go down. 01:16:43.479 --> 01:16:48.679 Unknown: But at the same time, you've got to condense that steam out eventually. 01:16:48.679 --> 01:16:53.479 SPEAKER_03: So the water consumption goes up from that side, but it decreases in the power plant. 01:16:53.559 --> 01:16:59.039 SPEAKER_03: So about maybe 30, 40% increase overall is what happens. 01:16:59.039 --> 01:17:05.399 SPEAKER_08: Also for a metric against how much CO2 you're capturing. 01:17:05.399 --> 01:17:09.719 SPEAKER_08: So for a ton of carbon capture, how much water? 01:17:09.719 --> 01:17:11.679 Unknown: That I don't know on top of my head. 01:17:11.679 --> 01:17:17.719 SPEAKER_03: Well, water's big for California in many states, so that would be something to know. 01:17:17.719 --> 01:17:19.919 SPEAKER_03: And so there's different options available. 01:17:19.920 --> 01:17:24.159 SPEAKER_03: You could use dry cooling, for instance, but dry cooling is expensive. 01:17:24.159 --> 01:17:25.840 SPEAKER_03: And we actually are doing evaluation. 01:17:25.840 --> 01:17:30.720 SPEAKER_03: We did the one in Elkhills, for instance, where we used a combination of water and other 01:17:30.720 --> 01:17:33.800 SPEAKER_03: cooling technologies to design that unit. 01:17:33.800 --> 01:17:38.159 SPEAKER_03: We're currently doing some work in California where water is not an option, so we're looking 01:17:38.159 --> 01:17:39.840 SPEAKER_03: at dry cooling options. 01:17:39.840 --> 01:17:41.159 SPEAKER_08: Doing it without water? 01:17:41.159 --> 01:17:42.159 Unknown: Yeah. 01:17:42.159 --> 01:17:43.159 SPEAKER_08: Okay. 01:17:43.159 --> 01:17:44.159 SPEAKER_08: But it'll be expensive. 01:17:44.159 --> 01:17:45.159 SPEAKER_03: The capital cost goes up. 01:17:45.159 --> 01:17:46.560 SPEAKER_03: We just don't know the numbers yet. 01:17:46.560 --> 01:17:47.560 Unknown: Okay. 01:17:47.560 --> 01:17:52.000 SPEAKER_08: And I'll just say, I just find it fascinating that human beings have worked so hard to dig 01:17:52.000 --> 01:17:57.760 SPEAKER_08: carbon off out of the ground that was millions of years being put in the crust of the earth. 01:17:57.760 --> 01:18:00.360 SPEAKER_08: And now we're spending all this time and money trying to figure out how to put it back in 01:18:00.360 --> 01:18:01.360 SPEAKER_08: the ground. 01:18:01.360 --> 01:18:02.360 SPEAKER_03: Well, you're 100% correct. 01:18:02.360 --> 01:18:07.960 SPEAKER_03: So the way one, at least I kind of would like to mention, is that you're taking carbon out 01:18:07.960 --> 01:18:09.480 SPEAKER_03: of the ground and you want to put it back in. 01:18:09.480 --> 01:18:10.480 SPEAKER_03: Yep. 01:18:10.480 --> 01:18:14.520 Unknown: There's a lot of danger when it's up in the atmosphere. 01:18:14.520 --> 01:18:15.520 SPEAKER_08: Thank you so much. 01:18:15.520 --> 01:18:16.520 SPEAKER_08: Thank you. 01:18:16.520 --> 01:18:20.680 SPEAKER_08: And last presenter of the evening, I believe, which is Joe. 01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:24.360 SPEAKER_08: And he's going to be speaking to us on storage. 01:18:24.360 --> 01:18:27.360 SPEAKER_08: Or both, Joe? 01:18:27.360 --> 01:18:30.000 Unknown: Did we get both? 01:18:30.000 --> 01:18:31.000 SPEAKER_08: We did? 01:18:31.000 --> 01:18:32.000 SPEAKER_05: You get both of us. 01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:35.240 SPEAKER_05: We're both named Joe, so it's really easy. 01:18:35.240 --> 01:18:42.920 SPEAKER_05: So Joe Ashley, I'm a senior director of governmental and regulatory affairs for Carbon TeraVault. 01:18:42.920 --> 01:18:50.640 SPEAKER_05: Carbon TeraVault is wholly owned subsidiary, same company, as California Resources Corporation. 01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:54.880 SPEAKER_05: And we are the largest oil and gas producer in the state of California. 01:18:54.880 --> 01:18:59.840 SPEAKER_05: Produce about 10% overall of the hydrocarbons used in California. 01:18:59.840 --> 01:19:04.039 SPEAKER_05: Or produced in California, we're down much lower than that when you talk about what we 01:19:04.039 --> 01:19:07.520 SPEAKER_05: actually use in California on a daily basis. 01:19:07.520 --> 01:19:11.760 SPEAKER_05: So we're happy and proud to do that. 01:19:11.760 --> 01:19:13.400 SPEAKER_05: We're uniquely here in California. 01:19:13.400 --> 01:19:18.119 SPEAKER_05: That has just changed recently as we made an acquisition of Barry Petroleum. 01:19:18.119 --> 01:19:22.239 SPEAKER_05: And they had a few assets over in southern Utah. 01:19:22.239 --> 01:19:24.520 SPEAKER_05: We're in the process of figuring out what we're going to do with that. 01:19:24.520 --> 01:19:27.680 SPEAKER_05: But my main point for bringing that up is we're a California company. 01:19:27.680 --> 01:19:31.159 SPEAKER_05: And we don't have the option to pick up our toys and move them somewhere else. 01:19:31.159 --> 01:19:32.400 SPEAKER_05: That would be a heck of a lot easier. 01:19:32.400 --> 01:19:36.320 SPEAKER_05: A lot of land use conflicts and public conflicts will be taken away. 01:19:36.320 --> 01:19:37.440 SPEAKER_05: But we're not able to do that. 01:19:37.440 --> 01:19:40.360 SPEAKER_05: But we are committed to being here. 01:19:40.359 --> 01:19:42.439 SPEAKER_05: We're an energy consumptive society. 01:19:42.439 --> 01:19:48.239 SPEAKER_05: And we are committed to providing the cleanest and best energy we possibly can for California. 01:19:48.239 --> 01:19:51.079 SPEAKER_05: And we look forward to continuing to do that. 01:19:51.079 --> 01:19:52.439 SPEAKER_05: We can also read the room. 01:19:52.439 --> 01:19:54.639 SPEAKER_05: And that is that something has to change. 01:19:54.639 --> 01:19:57.639 SPEAKER_05: And conventional status quo is not going to work into the future. 01:19:57.639 --> 01:20:04.319 SPEAKER_05: And so we have embraced the opportunities for carbon capture for multiple reasons. 01:20:04.319 --> 01:20:07.039 SPEAKER_05: And so as we go through our presentation, we're going to talk about our company. 01:20:07.039 --> 01:20:09.119 SPEAKER_05: We're going to talk about the storage options that we have. 01:20:09.119 --> 01:20:11.880 SPEAKER_05: Joe and I will share that presentation kind of ping-pong back and forth. 01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:15.199 SPEAKER_05: So I will turn it over to him to talk a little bit more about our storage opportunities. 01:20:15.199 --> 01:20:16.960 Unknown: And I'll be back. 01:20:16.960 --> 01:20:17.960 Unknown: Thank you. 01:20:17.960 --> 01:20:19.960 SPEAKER_04: My name is Joe Jefferson. 01:20:19.960 --> 01:20:26.519 SPEAKER_04: I work for Carbon TeraVault, subsidiary of CRC, as a storage development manager for 01:20:26.519 --> 01:20:30.000 SPEAKER_04: developing CO2 sequestration reservoirs in the state of California. 01:20:30.000 --> 01:20:33.399 SPEAKER_04: And we're going to talk a little bit about that portfolio. 01:20:33.399 --> 01:20:39.079 SPEAKER_04: But just related to some of the previous discussions and what Joe mentioned, I am a 01:20:39.880 --> 01:20:45.640 SPEAKER_04: petroleum workforce person who has transitioned into carbon management. 01:20:45.640 --> 01:20:52.479 SPEAKER_04: And we're solving the problems of the day, not only to help try to decarbonize our energy 01:20:52.479 --> 01:20:57.920 SPEAKER_04: that we need on a daily basis, how to do it safely, how to do it with community involvement. 01:20:58.600 --> 01:21:02.119 SPEAKER_04: And so those are some of the fun technical challenges that I get to work on. 01:21:02.439 --> 01:21:08.680 SPEAKER_04: My background is in engineering, well-engineering specifically. 01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:12.960 SPEAKER_04: So I study and understand how fluids move through the subsurface. 01:21:13.280 --> 01:21:18.440 SPEAKER_04: And we design the plumbing that allows the injection and production of those fluids, 01:21:19.119 --> 01:21:24.159 SPEAKER_04: whether that's extraction for production of hydrocarbons, injection for CO2. 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:32.360 SPEAKER_04: And so I bring a technical experience to our business and the ability to help kind of 01:21:32.360 --> 01:21:38.119 SPEAKER_04: design these projects safely to ensure that the CO2 stays in the ground as intended. 01:21:38.119 --> 01:21:44.279 SPEAKER_04: And I'm going to talk a little bit about that with an example project that's in your backyard. 01:21:47.920 --> 01:21:58.960 SPEAKER_04: So first, just in 2021, CRC created Carbon TeraVault to look at two things, 01:21:59.319 --> 01:22:05.439 SPEAKER_04: to look at decarbonizing the energy that CRC produces, as well as to look at how we can 01:22:05.439 --> 01:22:11.919 SPEAKER_04: deploy our expertise in subsurface engineering and project development and operations 01:22:12.279 --> 01:22:16.319 SPEAKER_04: to provide storage of CO2 as a service to the state of California. 01:22:16.960 --> 01:22:22.359 SPEAKER_04: And so on the right-hand side, you see some big numbers in terms of total addressable market 01:22:22.719 --> 01:22:30.399 SPEAKER_04: in kind of northern and southern California, totaling about 90 million metric tons per annum, MMTPA. 01:22:31.000 --> 01:22:37.319 Unknown: And so to abate those emissions, we would have to inject 90 million tons of captured CO2, 01:22:38.119 --> 01:22:43.719 SPEAKER_04: captured like was spoken about previously, then goes transported to storage sites, 01:22:43.920 --> 01:22:50.799 SPEAKER_04: injected deep in the subsurface below confining layers that have impermeable barriers 01:22:50.799 --> 01:22:52.759 SPEAKER_04: that will hold the CO2 in place. 01:22:53.760 --> 01:23:01.760 SPEAKER_04: The way that we've built our portfolio, starting with and leading with storage, is twofold. 01:23:01.760 --> 01:23:07.760 SPEAKER_04: So we've looked at our existing oil and gas assets that are suitable for repurposing. 01:23:07.960 --> 01:23:11.760 SPEAKER_04: By assets, I mean the subsurface reservoirs that we can inject CO2 into, 01:23:12.760 --> 01:23:18.760 SPEAKER_04: as well as saline aquifer sequestration, which is basically the regional hydrogelogic systems 01:23:19.760 --> 01:23:26.760 SPEAKER_04: that contain non-protected water, so saline, brackish water. 01:23:27.760 --> 01:23:33.760 Unknown: So what you see here is a mix of nine projects across northern and central California, 01:23:33.760 --> 01:23:40.760 SPEAKER_04: a mix of oil and gas reservoirs and saline projects that can sequester CO2. 01:23:41.760 --> 01:23:45.760 SPEAKER_04: Beginning in 2021, we started submitting permits. 01:23:45.760 --> 01:23:50.760 SPEAKER_04: We feel like the way to lead is to show that we have an asset where we can take CO2 01:23:50.760 --> 01:23:54.760 SPEAKER_04: so that we can engage counterparties and have something to give. 01:23:55.760 --> 01:24:00.760 SPEAKER_04: And so we've led with designing and permitting storage projects, nine in total. 01:24:01.760 --> 01:24:03.760 SPEAKER_04: Permitting process is arduous. 01:24:03.760 --> 01:24:07.760 SPEAKER_04: That's what the EPA, Region 9 is the region that oversees California. 01:24:08.760 --> 01:24:14.760 SPEAKER_04: And the program, and the UIC program, is a Class 6 well categorization. 01:24:14.760 --> 01:24:19.760 SPEAKER_04: So it's a Class 6 EPA permit for geologic sequestration of CO2. 01:24:20.760 --> 01:24:23.760 SPEAKER_04: And that's what we're talking about when we talk about storage. 01:24:23.760 --> 01:24:26.760 SPEAKER_04: The nine projects here, you can see some stats. 01:24:26.760 --> 01:24:32.760 SPEAKER_04: They total about 350 million metric tons of storage capacity in these nine reservoirs. 01:24:32.760 --> 01:24:39.760 SPEAKER_04: And that's a drop in the bucket compared to 90 million tons per annum year after year after year. 01:24:39.760 --> 01:24:40.760 SPEAKER_04: So we're just getting started. 01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:46.760 SPEAKER_04: What I would say is this Central Valley and Sacramento Valley is pristine storage, 01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:48.760 SPEAKER_04: some of the best in the U.S. 01:24:48.760 --> 01:24:50.760 SPEAKER_04: And there are studies that demonstrate that. 01:24:50.760 --> 01:24:52.760 SPEAKER_04: The labs have looked at this. 01:24:52.760 --> 01:24:57.760 SPEAKER_04: So we're in a spot where it's right to store CO2. 01:24:59.760 --> 01:25:04.760 Unknown: Across these projects, I'll show you CTV4. 01:25:04.760 --> 01:25:08.760 SPEAKER_04: So the Roman numerals here, this is the one that's the third from the bottom 01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:11.760 SPEAKER_04: in the Northern California section. 01:25:11.760 --> 01:25:15.760 SPEAKER_04: But what I'd like to talk about before we get into that is our first project, 01:25:15.760 --> 01:25:17.760 SPEAKER_04: which is currently injecting CO2. 01:25:18.760 --> 01:25:23.760 SPEAKER_04: This is at our 26R reservoir at CTV1, which is our Elkhil's oil field. 01:25:23.760 --> 01:25:28.760 SPEAKER_04: CRC's flagship asset used to be a strategic petroleum reserve 01:25:28.760 --> 01:25:35.760 SPEAKER_04: and was acquired one of the biggest privatizations of a government asset in 1998. 01:25:36.760 --> 01:25:42.760 SPEAKER_04: And we are now transitioning that field through this project 01:25:42.760 --> 01:25:46.760 SPEAKER_04: to demonstrate how a 100-year-old oil field can keep contributing 01:25:46.760 --> 01:25:50.760 SPEAKER_04: to energy for society as well as decarbonization. 01:25:51.760 --> 01:25:53.760 SPEAKER_04: We got the first EPA permit. 01:25:53.760 --> 01:26:01.760 SPEAKER_04: The EPA has issued since one pilot project almost 10 years ago. 01:26:01.760 --> 01:26:04.760 SPEAKER_04: This was issued by Region 9. 01:26:04.760 --> 01:26:09.760 SPEAKER_04: We commissioned the project earlier this year, and we started injecting in May. 01:26:09.760 --> 01:26:15.760 SPEAKER_04: And this was, again, the first active CO2 sequestration project under EPA, 01:26:15.760 --> 01:26:17.760 SPEAKER_04: kind of modern EPA jurisdiction. 01:26:17.760 --> 01:26:22.760 SPEAKER_04: So we have proven that we can get permits, that we can execute projects, 01:26:22.760 --> 01:26:30.760 SPEAKER_04: that storage is a viable technology to complement capture in the CCS solution, 01:26:31.760 --> 01:26:38.760 SPEAKER_04: which we feel is critical now to help decarbonize the existing energy assets 01:26:38.760 --> 01:26:40.760 SPEAKER_04: that society relies on. 01:26:43.760 --> 01:26:46.760 Unknown: I guess the last thing to say here is that the permitting process is long. 01:26:46.760 --> 01:26:48.760 SPEAKER_04: You can see target permit dates. 01:26:48.760 --> 01:26:53.760 SPEAKER_04: We've got a lot of permits that we submitted in 2022 and 2023, 01:26:53.760 --> 01:26:59.760 SPEAKER_04: and we've been working, and we expect to see draft permit decisions later this year 01:26:59.760 --> 01:27:01.760 SPEAKER_04: and early next year across this portfolio. 01:27:01.760 --> 01:27:09.760 SPEAKER_04: We're continuing to build out that portfolio and looking to provide more storage opportunities 01:27:09.760 --> 01:27:11.760 SPEAKER_04: in the appropriate locations. 01:27:13.760 --> 01:27:14.760 Unknown: Anything else to add here, Joe? 01:27:14.760 --> 01:27:15.760 SPEAKER_04: Okay. 01:27:16.760 --> 01:27:19.760 Unknown: Can I ask you a stupid question because I know it. 01:27:19.760 --> 01:27:20.760 SPEAKER_09: I don't know it. 01:27:20.760 --> 01:27:25.760 SPEAKER_09: I don't exactly know what an EPA Class 6 permit entails. 01:27:25.760 --> 01:27:29.760 SPEAKER_09: Can you just give me a very short summary of that world? 01:27:29.760 --> 01:27:30.760 SPEAKER_09: Sure, sure. 01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:34.760 SPEAKER_04: So EPA is responsible for enforcing the Clean Water Act, 01:27:34.760 --> 01:27:38.760 SPEAKER_04: which is protection of USDW underground sources of drinking water. 01:27:38.760 --> 01:27:43.760 SPEAKER_04: And so their underground injection control program, the UIC program, 01:27:43.760 --> 01:27:51.760 SPEAKER_04: is what's used to regulate any injection into the subsurface, into or through USDW 01:27:51.760 --> 01:27:53.760 SPEAKER_04: to ensure that USDW is not harmed. 01:27:54.760 --> 01:27:56.760 SPEAKER_04: So there's different classes of injection. 01:27:56.760 --> 01:27:59.760 SPEAKER_04: Most recently, Class 6 is the latest, 01:27:59.760 --> 01:28:06.760 SPEAKER_04: and there are specific CFRs that are written to ensure protection of USDW 01:28:06.760 --> 01:28:08.760 SPEAKER_04: and enforcement of the Clean Water Act. 01:28:08.760 --> 01:28:15.760 SPEAKER_04: And so the EPA is tasked with enforcing and regulating Class 6 injection of CO2. 01:28:16.760 --> 01:28:22.760 Unknown: And I would assume that that's the really strict standards around low risk and protection? 01:28:22.760 --> 01:28:23.760 SPEAKER_09: It is. 01:28:23.760 --> 01:28:24.760 SPEAKER_04: It's very strict. 01:28:26.760 --> 01:28:31.760 SPEAKER_04: The regulations require – I'll get through some of what you'll see as I talk through the project. 01:28:31.760 --> 01:28:37.760 SPEAKER_04: You're going to see quite a bit of monitoring, quite a bit of demonstrating through operations 01:28:37.760 --> 01:28:40.760 SPEAKER_04: that the project is performing as expected. 01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:46.760 SPEAKER_04: There's years of technical review that we go through, 01:28:46.760 --> 01:28:48.760 SPEAKER_04: and we're currently in, in many of these projects, 01:28:48.760 --> 01:28:52.760 SPEAKER_04: whereby we're demonstrating the integrity of the wells, 01:28:52.760 --> 01:28:57.760 SPEAKER_04: such that there won't be leakage through the wells, demonstrating integrity of the geology 01:28:57.760 --> 01:29:01.760 SPEAKER_04: and the cap rock that's going to confine the CO2, 01:29:01.760 --> 01:29:06.760 SPEAKER_04: because there is a small repressurization with the injected CO2. 01:29:06.760 --> 01:29:11.760 SPEAKER_04: It's important to know that, you know, this relative pressure increase is small. 01:29:11.760 --> 01:29:17.760 SPEAKER_04: It's not exceeding the parting pressure of the rock to create fractures, to create earthquakes. 01:29:17.760 --> 01:29:22.760 SPEAKER_04: But we're monitoring for those to ensure that, you know, that we're performing as expected. 01:29:23.760 --> 01:29:24.760 Unknown: Quick question on permitting. 01:29:24.760 --> 01:29:27.760 SPEAKER_08: Since I'm not familiar with this permit either, I mean, just curious, 01:29:27.760 --> 01:29:30.760 SPEAKER_08: how long the Feds take to permit something like this? 01:29:31.760 --> 01:29:32.760 Unknown: We're finding out. 01:29:32.760 --> 01:29:35.760 SPEAKER_04: So our first project took about four years. 01:29:35.760 --> 01:29:41.760 SPEAKER_04: I think, you know, there's a target to get this permitting kind of expedited, 01:29:41.760 --> 01:29:46.760 SPEAKER_04: but projects are complex, and they're doing a good job working through all the details. 01:29:46.760 --> 01:29:48.760 SPEAKER_04: Earlier projects are going to take longer. 01:29:48.760 --> 01:29:51.760 SPEAKER_04: I think, you know, initially when we started, 01:29:51.760 --> 01:29:54.760 SPEAKER_04: the target for EPA permitting was about two years, 01:29:54.760 --> 01:29:56.760 SPEAKER_04: and it took us about four for the first project. 01:29:56.760 --> 01:30:01.760 SPEAKER_04: We're on track for about, you know, four-ish for these projects as well. 01:30:01.760 --> 01:30:07.760 SPEAKER_04: But EPA is looking to, you know, increase their process efficiency 01:30:07.760 --> 01:30:14.760 SPEAKER_04: to look for opportunities to expedite permitting with the target of, you know, two years or less. 01:30:14.760 --> 01:30:17.760 SPEAKER_04: And is there any other California permitting? 01:30:17.760 --> 01:30:20.760 SPEAKER_08: And then, of course, you've got a slide on land use permitting. 01:30:20.760 --> 01:30:24.760 SPEAKER_08: So I'm just thinking, what would be the total amount of time would it take 01:30:24.760 --> 01:30:26.760 SPEAKER_08: to get something up and running from? 01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:28.760 Unknown: Yeah, so... 01:30:28.760 --> 01:30:29.760 SPEAKER_04: Are you talking a decade? 01:30:29.760 --> 01:30:33.760 SPEAKER_08: No, it's not in series, and Joe is going to talk about this, 01:30:33.760 --> 01:30:35.760 SPEAKER_04: and this is really his expertise. 01:30:35.760 --> 01:30:38.760 SPEAKER_04: I have some experience working with the EPA. 01:30:38.760 --> 01:30:42.760 SPEAKER_04: A lot of this is, you know, semi-parallel path. 01:30:42.760 --> 01:30:44.760 SPEAKER_04: We're leading with permitting of storage first 01:30:44.760 --> 01:30:50.760 SPEAKER_04: because it's hard to contemplate a project if you don't have a storage asset to talk about, 01:30:50.760 --> 01:30:52.760 SPEAKER_04: to, you know, to work with. 01:30:52.760 --> 01:30:56.760 SPEAKER_04: So in a way, it's our entry into the project development discussion. 01:30:56.760 --> 01:30:58.760 SPEAKER_04: It's the asset that we bring. 01:30:58.760 --> 01:31:01.760 SPEAKER_04: So, you know, of course, we can talk about it earlier, but, you know, 01:31:01.760 --> 01:31:04.760 SPEAKER_04: nothing really happens until we have permit in hand 01:31:04.760 --> 01:31:06.760 SPEAKER_04: in terms of counterparty commitment. 01:31:06.760 --> 01:31:09.760 SPEAKER_04: And so that's why we're kind of leading with the classics permit. 01:31:09.760 --> 01:31:12.760 SPEAKER_04: There is other land use permitting through the state. 01:31:12.760 --> 01:31:15.760 SPEAKER_04: Joe's going to speak to that in a couple of seconds. 01:31:15.760 --> 01:31:17.760 SPEAKER_04: You're a very brave company to do this here. 01:31:20.760 --> 01:31:21.760 Unknown: Good to move on? 01:31:21.760 --> 01:31:22.760 Unknown: Yeah. 01:31:22.760 --> 01:31:23.760 Unknown: Okay. 01:31:24.760 --> 01:31:26.760 Unknown: All right, so a busy slide here. 01:31:26.760 --> 01:31:28.760 SPEAKER_04: I chose CTV4. 01:31:28.760 --> 01:31:32.760 SPEAKER_04: This is a project that's, you know, in your backyard. 01:31:32.760 --> 01:31:37.760 SPEAKER_04: This is located about halfway between the city of Galt and Elk Grove. 01:31:37.760 --> 01:31:44.760 SPEAKER_04: And what you see on the left-hand side is, you know, kind of a map view of the, 01:31:44.760 --> 01:31:48.760 SPEAKER_04: you know, the red boundary is the project area of review. 01:31:48.760 --> 01:31:55.760 SPEAKER_04: This is a technical term that defines the project boundary within the CFRs and EPA's regulation. 01:31:55.760 --> 01:32:00.760 SPEAKER_04: And that's the area that's impacted by either the presence of CO2 01:32:00.760 --> 01:32:04.760 SPEAKER_04: or pressure increase as a result of the injection. 01:32:04.760 --> 01:32:08.760 Unknown: And so this defines the area that we need to evaluate for containment, 01:32:08.760 --> 01:32:15.760 SPEAKER_04: for other risks for geology, continuity, and trapping, and things like that. 01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:20.760 Unknown: You can see inside the red circle is a blue circle. 01:32:20.760 --> 01:32:22.760 SPEAKER_04: It doesn't stand out that well here. 01:32:22.760 --> 01:32:23.760 SPEAKER_04: I apologize. 01:32:24.760 --> 01:32:26.760 SPEAKER_04: That is the plume of CO2. 01:32:26.760 --> 01:32:33.760 SPEAKER_04: So that's where the actual CO2 is when we inject it at the designed injection rate 01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:36.760 SPEAKER_04: for the designed period of time. 01:32:36.760 --> 01:32:42.760 SPEAKER_04: And so what you see is a larger pressure boundary, a smaller CO2 plume within that. 01:32:42.760 --> 01:32:50.760 SPEAKER_04: And the green and orange dots represent injection wells and monitoring wells as well. 01:32:50.760 --> 01:32:54.760 SPEAKER_04: I'm going to talk a little bit more about kind of the subsurface 01:32:54.760 --> 01:32:57.760 SPEAKER_04: and give you a view of that in the next slide, how that's used. 01:32:57.760 --> 01:33:03.760 SPEAKER_04: But this project, the plume size totals about 4,300 acres. 01:33:03.760 --> 01:33:11.760 SPEAKER_04: And that acreage is capable of storing about 30, 33 to 34 million metric tons of CO2. 01:33:11.760 --> 01:33:16.760 SPEAKER_04: We're permitting up to eight injection wells and four monitoring wells. 01:33:16.760 --> 01:33:23.760 SPEAKER_04: The designed injection rate totals about 1.4 million metric tons per year. 01:33:23.760 --> 01:33:32.760 Unknown: So this implies about a 24-year project life, injecting CO2, capturing off of some facility. 01:33:32.760 --> 01:33:37.760 SPEAKER_04: That facility could be a natural gas combined cycle power plant adjacent to the area. 01:33:37.760 --> 01:33:44.760 SPEAKER_04: It could be another solid oxide fuel cell plant that could be adjacent. 01:33:44.760 --> 01:33:45.760 SPEAKER_04: It could be co-located. 01:33:45.760 --> 01:33:49.760 SPEAKER_04: We're building optionality for developers who have assets 01:33:49.760 --> 01:33:56.760 SPEAKER_04: or anticipate building assets that need to be decarbonized. 01:33:56.760 --> 01:34:00.760 SPEAKER_04: In kind of the middle, I show a cross-section. 01:34:00.760 --> 01:34:06.760 SPEAKER_04: And so on the map, you see the black line that kind of cuts across the red circle there. 01:34:06.760 --> 01:34:14.760 Unknown: The figure to the right of that is kind of a vertical slice through the geology looking down. 01:34:14.760 --> 01:34:20.760 SPEAKER_04: And what you see, the yellow and orange layers there, those are our target injection zones, 01:34:20.760 --> 01:34:24.760 SPEAKER_04: Mokalumny River and Starkey Formation. 01:34:24.760 --> 01:34:31.760 Unknown: The gray represents the impermeable containment barriers that are going to hold the CO2 in place. 01:34:31.760 --> 01:34:42.760 SPEAKER_04: And the squiggly line in the middle is a well that was characterized that we use to help evaluate the geology. 01:34:42.760 --> 01:34:44.760 SPEAKER_04: I'm not going to bring that up on the right-hand side. 01:34:44.760 --> 01:34:47.760 SPEAKER_04: I'm not going to go through the details of what all this means. 01:34:47.760 --> 01:34:55.760 SPEAKER_04: But I do, you know, the yellow on the left-hand track represents the sandstone that is the permeable formation. 01:34:55.760 --> 01:34:58.760 SPEAKER_04: And the thin gray line represents the barriers. 01:34:58.760 --> 01:35:01.760 SPEAKER_04: So we have two, an upper and lower injection zone. 01:35:01.760 --> 01:35:06.760 SPEAKER_04: We have an upper confining layer, which is the trap that keeps the CO2 in place. 01:35:06.760 --> 01:35:11.760 SPEAKER_04: And then we have an above zone monitoring interval. 01:35:11.760 --> 01:35:13.760 SPEAKER_04: The upper calls out a dissipation zone. 01:35:13.760 --> 01:35:16.760 SPEAKER_04: It's basically a secondary containment if there were leakage. 01:35:16.760 --> 01:35:18.760 SPEAKER_04: And that's also not protected water. 01:35:18.760 --> 01:35:20.760 SPEAKER_04: Right? That's non-USDW. 01:35:20.760 --> 01:35:28.760 SPEAKER_04: So we would monitor that to look for, you know, any indication of leakage that we would then take some action on. 01:35:28.760 --> 01:35:30.760 SPEAKER_04: And then above that is the base of USDW. 01:35:30.760 --> 01:35:38.760 SPEAKER_04: And that's really what EPA is charged with protecting. 01:35:38.760 --> 01:35:46.760 Unknown: It's basically saying, look, you have a confining zone and then an area, like a buffer zone, 01:35:46.760 --> 01:35:49.760 SPEAKER_09: and then you have another confining zone on top. 01:35:49.760 --> 01:35:51.760 SPEAKER_09: Right? 01:35:51.760 --> 01:35:58.760 SPEAKER_09: So there's at least two, there's two geological formations, right, that are going to contain. 01:35:58.760 --> 01:36:03.760 Unknown: In this particular example, there's two injection zones and then there's a barrier in between. 01:36:03.760 --> 01:36:06.760 SPEAKER_04: Typically, we might target one single injection zone. 01:36:06.760 --> 01:36:08.760 SPEAKER_04: And then we have the confining layer on top. 01:36:08.760 --> 01:36:15.760 SPEAKER_04: And that can be, you know, 100, hundreds of feet thick, 1,000 feet thick, deep marine shales. 01:36:15.760 --> 01:36:20.760 SPEAKER_04: The dissipation permeable zone above that is basically a spillover. 01:36:20.760 --> 01:36:26.760 SPEAKER_04: If there were some leakage, how do we ensure that, you know, we detect it before it gets to USDW? 01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:34.760 SPEAKER_04: And so that's kind of how we would use that above zone interval for monitoring as a secondary. 01:36:35.760 --> 01:36:40.760 SPEAKER_09: Are there generally like two zones required in finding a good site? 01:36:40.760 --> 01:36:43.760 SPEAKER_09: Are there at least two confining zones required? 01:36:43.760 --> 01:36:47.760 SPEAKER_09: Or what's the other little commentary about that when you pick a site? 01:36:47.760 --> 01:36:51.760 Unknown: Yeah, I think, you know, what you need is an adequate confining layer. 01:36:51.760 --> 01:36:54.760 SPEAKER_04: And you really need one. 01:36:54.760 --> 01:36:59.760 SPEAKER_04: Our dissipation zone typically would have another confining layer on top of that, 01:36:59.760 --> 01:37:04.760 SPEAKER_04: such that, you know, any CO2 could dissipate into that zone and not migrate upward. 01:37:04.760 --> 01:37:10.760 SPEAKER_04: So in a way, you could think of it as there is a secondary containment barrier there. 01:37:10.760 --> 01:37:16.760 SPEAKER_04: The regulations require primary containment and monitoring above that containment. 01:37:16.760 --> 01:37:20.760 SPEAKER_04: And, you know, that should be sufficient to contain the CO2. 01:37:20.760 --> 01:37:26.760 SPEAKER_04: You know, the more barriers, the better, I guess. 01:37:26.760 --> 01:37:31.760 SPEAKER_04: And in California and Central Valley, the geology is right for this. 01:37:31.760 --> 01:37:40.760 SPEAKER_04: So I think, you know, how we monitor and how we measure and how we report and how we verify, MMRV. 01:37:40.760 --> 01:37:44.760 SPEAKER_04: So these are different concepts and acronyms that are thrown around. 01:37:44.760 --> 01:37:50.760 SPEAKER_04: But it's basically our demonstrated license to operate during the injection operation. 01:37:50.760 --> 01:38:00.760 SPEAKER_04: And it's also the mechanism whereby we validate the injected CO2, we report the volumes in order to be eligible for the 45Q credits and other things. 01:38:00.760 --> 01:38:05.760 SPEAKER_04: So combination of purposes that we're monitoring for here. 01:38:05.760 --> 01:38:11.760 SPEAKER_04: But what I wanted to show in this slide is really, again, I'll start on the right-hand side, top monitoring zones. 01:38:11.760 --> 01:38:16.760 SPEAKER_04: You see the USDW, you see the injection zone, confining zone, dissipation zone. 01:38:16.760 --> 01:38:17.760 SPEAKER_04: We talked about that. 01:38:17.760 --> 01:38:27.760 SPEAKER_04: If you move over to the left-hand side, again, this is another cross-section, so you're seeing, you know, top is surface, you know, bottom is deep. 01:38:27.760 --> 01:38:33.760 SPEAKER_04: On the left-hand side, we define these monitoring domains as the things that we're going to pay attention to. 01:38:33.760 --> 01:38:42.760 SPEAKER_04: And within the geologic, you know, stack and atmosphere, we're looking at surface, at soil, biosphere. 01:38:42.760 --> 01:38:45.760 SPEAKER_04: We're looking at, you know, the hydrosphere, which is a water wet formation. 01:38:45.760 --> 01:38:49.760 SPEAKER_04: And for the sake of this, we're kind of calling it hydrosphere the protected USDW. 01:38:49.760 --> 01:38:51.760 SPEAKER_04: And then the geosphere would be the stuff below that. 01:38:51.760 --> 01:38:57.760 SPEAKER_04: It may not be a scientifically correct terminology, but the geosphere would be the non-USDW. 01:38:57.760 --> 01:39:03.760 SPEAKER_04: We're monitoring all of these zones with wells, with indirect techniques. 01:39:03.760 --> 01:39:07.760 Unknown: We're monitoring for induced seismicity. 01:39:07.760 --> 01:39:23.760 SPEAKER_04: So we want to make sure that when we're injecting, we're not stressing the region such that we create a critical stress and potential failure in the form of, you know, minor earthquakes or a build of pressure that could result in, you know, something larger. 01:39:23.760 --> 01:39:34.760 SPEAKER_04: So we don't think that that's, you know, a scenario that's really feasible based on the way that we assess critical stress on faults. 01:39:34.760 --> 01:39:39.760 SPEAKER_04: And we design projects to avoid, you know, over-pressurizing. 01:39:39.760 --> 01:39:46.760 SPEAKER_04: Again, the pressure is maybe much less than other projects, other injection projects. 01:39:46.760 --> 01:39:51.760 Unknown: But the point is that we monitor and we report on all these different domains. 01:39:51.760 --> 01:40:13.760 SPEAKER_04: Additionally, we're looking at kind of operational domains that include injection operations, pressure and temperature, volume of what we're injecting to ensure that our simulations of the subsurface are accurate and are representative and can be used to demonstrate performance as expected. 01:40:13.760 --> 01:40:19.760 SPEAKER_04: We're looking at monitoring of wells to ensure that the wells are not creating leakage paths. 01:40:19.760 --> 01:40:31.760 SPEAKER_04: And all this is quarterly annual, you know, routine monitoring that's part of the project that's designed into our strategy to ensure safety. 01:40:31.760 --> 01:40:34.760 SPEAKER_04: Pipeline integrity is another one very similar to wells. 01:40:34.760 --> 01:40:43.760 SPEAKER_04: We're looking at, you know, rates and pressures, conditions under which, you know, we can minimize corrosion, so keeping the water out. 01:40:43.760 --> 01:40:53.760 SPEAKER_04: The measurements that we make here on the bottom right, a few of them would highlight, you know, pressure and temperature are critical to understanding how the subsurface is behaving. 01:40:53.760 --> 01:41:03.760 SPEAKER_04: We have simplifying models to represent very complex systems that we can't touch and we can't see every, you know, every grain, every rock. 01:41:03.760 --> 01:41:13.760 SPEAKER_04: We take geochemical samples, so fluid samples to look at, you know, presence of CO2, where it's moving, how it's moving, when it's moving, things like that. 01:41:13.760 --> 01:41:18.760 SPEAKER_04: Ensure that it's not present in the areas where we don't want it, right? 01:41:18.760 --> 01:41:20.760 SPEAKER_04: Induced seismicity, I mentioned that. 01:41:20.760 --> 01:41:32.760 SPEAKER_04: Injectate specification is a critical one because the impurities that are included with the CO2 can be, you know, very low in concentration, but in combination have the potential to create corrosive environments. 01:41:32.760 --> 01:41:35.760 SPEAKER_04: So we need to minimize the water. 01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:39.760 SPEAKER_04: We need to understand the presence of these impurities and how they interact with the wells. 01:41:39.760 --> 01:41:44.760 SPEAKER_04: So those are the kind of problems where we're working to ensure integrity. 01:41:44.760 --> 01:41:52.760 SPEAKER_04: You know, lastly, you know, whether it's a well, whether it's a pipeline, we have fiber optic monitoring, and this is both temperature and noise monitoring. 01:41:53.760 --> 01:42:05.760 SPEAKER_04: And so you can think about this continuous along the well, continuous along the pipeline with alert systems and alarms to react in case, you know, there's an anomaly that's detected. 01:42:08.760 --> 01:42:12.760 SPEAKER_02: Quick question. The vertical axis there is feet? 01:42:12.760 --> 01:42:13.760 Unknown: Yes. 01:42:13.760 --> 01:42:14.760 SPEAKER_04: Okay. 01:42:14.760 --> 01:42:19.760 SPEAKER_04: On the kind of left-hand side, so from surface to approximately 8,000 feet. 01:42:19.760 --> 01:42:20.760 SPEAKER_04: Okay, thanks. 01:42:20.760 --> 01:42:21.760 SPEAKER_04: Yep. 01:42:21.760 --> 01:42:36.760 Unknown: So just to put it in context, we talked about kilometers previously, geothermal, but we're typically injecting between, say, 3,000 and 10,000 feet below ground level, probably designing, you know, ideally, you know, 5,000, 6,000, 7,000 feet. 01:42:36.760 --> 01:42:45.760 SPEAKER_04: There's a tradeoff between temperature, how the CO2 compresses, how efficiently we can store the CO2 in that space, and then also proximity to USDW. 01:42:47.760 --> 01:42:48.760 Unknown: Good one. 01:42:49.760 --> 01:42:52.760 Unknown: Globaler questions. It's not my area of expertise. 01:42:54.760 --> 01:43:06.760 SPEAKER_09: How much of the science and understanding of how to operate these wells transfers into this CCS technology, and how much is being learned and developed as this progresses forward? 01:43:06.760 --> 01:43:08.760 SPEAKER_09: That's a great question. 01:43:09.760 --> 01:43:16.760 SPEAKER_04: This is a direct translation of, you know, petroleum industry's skill set for injection and extraction. 01:43:17.760 --> 01:43:24.760 SPEAKER_04: So we inject water, we inject steam, we inject gas, we inject CO2, and we have for decades. 01:43:24.760 --> 01:43:29.760 SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, our understanding is strong. 01:43:29.760 --> 01:43:38.760 SPEAKER_04: We have complex simulation reservoir performance and historical performance in many reservoirs to help kind of, you know, understand. 01:43:38.760 --> 01:43:44.760 SPEAKER_04: And I would say it's highly developed based on decades of experience. 01:43:44.760 --> 01:43:51.760 SPEAKER_04: Real quick, I'm just trying to envision the actual physical process. 01:43:51.760 --> 01:43:55.760 SPEAKER_06: Is it a physical containment of gas, or is it a chemical containment? 01:43:55.760 --> 01:44:02.760 SPEAKER_06: Like, do the rocks actually absorb the carbon, or is it more like a balloon where you're creating a reservoir somehow? 01:44:02.760 --> 01:44:05.760 SPEAKER_06: Yeah, another great question with a complicated answer. 01:44:05.760 --> 01:44:08.760 SPEAKER_04: I'll try to explain it quickly. 01:44:08.760 --> 01:44:18.760 SPEAKER_04: It's a pressure, you know, it's a container that is holding the CO2 initially. 01:44:18.760 --> 01:44:26.760 SPEAKER_04: Over longer periods of time, different processes occur whereby the CO2 gets absorbed into the water. 01:44:26.760 --> 01:44:29.760 SPEAKER_04: It mixes with the water and mineralizes, precipitates out. 01:44:30.760 --> 01:44:40.760 SPEAKER_04: And so, actually, if you look at kind of the risk profile of injected CO2 after you stop injecting into a saline reservoir, the risk profile decreases. 01:44:40.760 --> 01:44:41.760 SPEAKER_04: The pressure dissipates. 01:44:41.760 --> 01:44:47.760 SPEAKER_04: The CO2 gets trapped by different trapping mechanisms like dissolution and mineralization. 01:44:47.760 --> 01:44:52.760 SPEAKER_04: And so, you know, the stability of the CO2 increases with time. 01:44:52.760 --> 01:44:56.760 SPEAKER_04: Initially, it's trapped by pressure containment, though. 01:45:00.760 --> 01:45:03.760 Unknown: Okay. We can get back to your question now. 01:45:03.760 --> 01:45:05.760 Unknown: Ideally, you run them concurrently. 01:45:05.760 --> 01:45:07.760 SPEAKER_05: They can be parallel paths. 01:45:07.760 --> 01:45:13.760 SPEAKER_05: Nothing can happen in terms of the injection of CO2 without both authorization. 01:45:13.760 --> 01:45:20.760 SPEAKER_05: So EPA issues the Class 6 that make sure that USDW is protected. 01:45:20.760 --> 01:45:28.760 SPEAKER_05: Oddly enough, and I have been permitting for a really long time, I can't explain why it's NEPA exempt. 01:45:28.760 --> 01:45:32.760 SPEAKER_05: This is a federal process, but the National Environmental Policy Act does not apply. 01:45:32.760 --> 01:45:38.760 Unknown: So what happens is the land use permit piece and in California, CEQA. 01:45:38.760 --> 01:45:40.760 SPEAKER_05: And that's not something that exists somewhere else. 01:45:40.760 --> 01:45:46.760 SPEAKER_05: And I've spoken a few times at different spots together, and you've heard me say this before. 01:45:46.760 --> 01:45:54.760 SPEAKER_05: I think ultimately CEQA will be a competitive advantage in California because as we hear these fast-track permits in the middle of the U.S. 01:45:54.760 --> 01:46:04.760 SPEAKER_05: and even down in Louisiana, where the states have primacy for Class 6 and they issue the permits on behalf of the EPA, lightning fast. 01:46:04.760 --> 01:46:06.760 SPEAKER_05: You know, those permits happen really quickly. 01:46:06.760 --> 01:46:11.760 SPEAKER_05: Then the backlash comes from the communities and from the public who says, what the hell is going on here, basically? 01:46:11.760 --> 01:46:14.760 SPEAKER_05: And so, you know, CEQA helps us in that regard. 01:46:14.760 --> 01:46:19.760 SPEAKER_05: It's painful, and you know, I don't think I'm telling tells out of school, but, you know, our management hates that. 01:46:19.760 --> 01:46:24.760 SPEAKER_05: But the reality is it answers the questions that people want to have answered. 01:46:24.760 --> 01:46:27.760 SPEAKER_05: And so I think ultimately it takes a little longer. 01:46:27.760 --> 01:46:35.760 SPEAKER_05: But in the end, you have a process that has infinitely more transparency and public involvement in having some of these questions answered, 01:46:35.760 --> 01:46:40.760 SPEAKER_05: most importantly, before CO2 goes into the ground and before projects are approved. 01:46:40.760 --> 01:46:41.760 SPEAKER_05: Does that? 01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:42.760 SPEAKER_05: Great answer to that. 01:46:42.760 --> 01:46:43.760 SPEAKER_05: Okay. 01:46:43.760 --> 01:46:44.760 SPEAKER_05: The questions are quite difficult. 01:46:44.760 --> 01:46:47.760 SPEAKER_05: As I mentioned, two-part process. 01:46:47.760 --> 01:46:55.760 SPEAKER_05: You know, the regulations, the industry, us, have kind of outrun the regulation on this. 01:46:55.760 --> 01:47:05.760 SPEAKER_05: And in California, you know, the one that everybody heard a couple of years ago, Senator Caliaro introduced SB 905. 01:47:05.760 --> 01:47:11.760 SPEAKER_05: And that said, hey, wait, you know, let's just figure this out a little bit before we start permitting projects. 01:47:12.760 --> 01:47:19.760 SPEAKER_05: We, our business case, did not appreciate the unpredictability of that regulation. 01:47:19.760 --> 01:47:24.760 SPEAKER_05: And so we approached two counties where we had planned potential operations. 01:47:24.760 --> 01:47:25.760 SPEAKER_05: That was Kern County. 01:47:25.760 --> 01:47:26.760 SPEAKER_05: That's where our home is. 01:47:26.760 --> 01:47:27.760 SPEAKER_05: That's where our largest asset is. 01:47:27.760 --> 01:47:31.760 SPEAKER_05: Great first trial run for depleted oil and gas reservoir storage. 01:47:31.760 --> 01:47:36.760 SPEAKER_05: And so we approached the county saying, oddly enough, please regulate us. 01:47:36.760 --> 01:47:40.760 SPEAKER_05: Please give us a permit for activities in the county. 01:47:40.760 --> 01:47:49.760 SPEAKER_05: And that basically triggered CEQA at the county level and required the county then to do full, well, this is related to the regulation. 01:47:49.760 --> 01:47:50.760 SPEAKER_05: No shortcuts. 01:47:50.760 --> 01:47:57.760 SPEAKER_05: So, you know, CEQA has some off-ramps in the scoping process that allow you to say, oh, I could do a nag deck or mitigate a nag deck. 01:47:57.760 --> 01:47:58.760 Unknown: Kern County said no. 01:47:58.760 --> 01:48:04.760 SPEAKER_05: You're going full FAIRER you're going to address all the appendix GCEQA topics. 01:48:04.760 --> 01:48:06.760 SPEAKER_05: And you're not going to scope out any of these. 01:48:06.760 --> 01:48:10.760 SPEAKER_05: And they also limited where these things could occur. 01:48:10.760 --> 01:48:22.760 SPEAKER_05: So you eliminated some of the land use conflicts by saying, look, areas of similar operations, agriculture, you got a lot of heavy equipment, you got really a lot of sometimes no people out there. 01:48:22.760 --> 01:48:25.760 SPEAKER_05: And then you have the industrial zones, the medium and heavy industrial zones. 01:48:25.760 --> 01:48:27.760 SPEAKER_05: So those are compatible uses up front. 01:48:27.760 --> 01:48:34.760 SPEAKER_05: So we approached Kern County, asked them to create this ordinance, which they did, as well as San Joaquin County. 01:48:34.760 --> 01:48:37.760 SPEAKER_05: CTV1, as Joe mentioned, is in Kern County. 01:48:37.760 --> 01:48:40.760 SPEAKER_05: CTVs 2, 3, 4, and 5 are all in the Delta. 01:48:40.760 --> 01:48:42.760 SPEAKER_05: So 2, 3, and 5 are in San Joaquin County. 01:48:42.760 --> 01:48:46.760 SPEAKER_05: 4, as he mentioned, is in Sacramento County. 01:48:46.760 --> 01:48:50.760 SPEAKER_05: Very, the ordinances are basically identical. 01:48:50.760 --> 01:48:53.760 SPEAKER_05: You know, we shared amongst the two counties and said, hey, here's what we're doing here. 01:48:53.760 --> 01:48:55.760 SPEAKER_05: And so they both adopted it. 01:48:55.760 --> 01:48:59.760 SPEAKER_05: And we've gone through that process now, which is basically a conditional use permit. 01:48:59.760 --> 01:49:01.760 SPEAKER_05: We did a full environmental impact. 01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:08.760 SPEAKER_05: The first one that I know of in the U.S., looking at the impacts overall of carbon sequestration and storage. 01:49:08.760 --> 01:49:12.760 SPEAKER_05: And it really made it a lot easier because it was on land that we owned entirely. 01:49:12.760 --> 01:49:14.760 SPEAKER_05: Our field, as Joe mentioned, is our flagship. 01:49:14.760 --> 01:49:17.760 SPEAKER_05: Seventy-five square miles, it's behind one fence. 01:49:17.760 --> 01:49:20.760 SPEAKER_05: And it has gates with guards. 01:49:20.760 --> 01:49:22.760 SPEAKER_05: And that was a military operation before. 01:49:22.760 --> 01:49:25.760 SPEAKER_05: And so we maintain that security perimeter. 01:49:25.760 --> 01:49:28.760 SPEAKER_05: And it's just a great place for serial number one. 01:49:28.760 --> 01:49:31.760 SPEAKER_05: And we have learned a ton from that. 01:49:31.760 --> 01:49:33.760 SPEAKER_05: So sorry to deviate there. 01:49:33.760 --> 01:49:36.760 SPEAKER_05: The CUP, you guys know the kind of the way those work. 01:49:36.760 --> 01:49:37.760 SPEAKER_05: The board ultimately approves them. 01:49:37.760 --> 01:49:40.760 SPEAKER_05: It goes through Planning Commission, which makes a recommendation. 01:49:40.760 --> 01:49:43.760 SPEAKER_05: It goes to the board for final approval. 01:49:43.760 --> 01:49:44.760 SPEAKER_05: And then the ER is certified. 01:49:44.760 --> 01:49:48.760 SPEAKER_05: There's a number of responsible agencies that were involved in this. 01:49:48.760 --> 01:49:57.760 SPEAKER_05: Fish and Wildlife, Water Board, Air District, a number of others that also use the CEQA document to issue their permits that were relative to the project. 01:49:58.760 --> 01:50:02.760 SPEAKER_05: 905 has continued to develop since we started this process. 01:50:02.760 --> 01:50:08.760 SPEAKER_05: And now we're behind, I'd say, as a state in terms of the implementation required by the legislation. 01:50:08.760 --> 01:50:11.760 SPEAKER_05: But there are some now guidelines that we know a bit more about. 01:50:11.760 --> 01:50:14.760 SPEAKER_05: They're working on this unified permit structure. 01:50:14.760 --> 01:50:17.760 SPEAKER_05: The moratorium on permitting is now lifted. 01:50:17.760 --> 01:50:19.760 SPEAKER_05: And so the permits are moving forward. 01:50:19.760 --> 01:50:23.760 SPEAKER_05: And for us, most importantly, it's the transportation piece. 01:50:23.760 --> 01:50:36.760 SPEAKER_05: And so 905 had this certain clause that said you can't transport CO2, concentrated CO2 that's outside of your facility. 01:50:36.760 --> 01:50:39.760 SPEAKER_05: Didn't really apply to CRO number one since we had all that with our one facility. 01:50:39.760 --> 01:50:46.760 SPEAKER_05: But everything outside of that requires some sort of transportation to and from the source to the reservoir. 01:50:46.760 --> 01:50:48.760 SPEAKER_05: We love the co-location idea. 01:50:48.760 --> 01:50:59.760 SPEAKER_05: And in the very early days, this is why the permitting is asynchronous for some of these, is we really were trying to find other greenfield sources that we could co-locate with the reservoirs. 01:50:59.760 --> 01:51:05.760 SPEAKER_05: But the reality is it's just not coming along that fast in terms of the capture technology. 01:51:05.760 --> 01:51:08.760 SPEAKER_05: And quite honestly, it's the cost of deploying. 01:51:08.760 --> 01:51:16.760 SPEAKER_05: Some industries are not really yet sure how long-term climate regulations are going to affect their operations. 01:51:16.760 --> 01:51:22.760 SPEAKER_05: And so they're just reluctant to open their pocketbook and spend billions of dollars to make these things happen. 01:51:22.760 --> 01:51:23.760 SPEAKER_05: It will mature. 01:51:23.760 --> 01:51:28.760 SPEAKER_05: And I think our job is to basically give a safe, stable reservoir to put the CO2. 01:51:28.760 --> 01:51:34.760 SPEAKER_05: And we will help them develop to get to that point where they're willing to spend money to do that. 01:51:34.760 --> 01:51:41.760 Unknown: 905, although it gives a unified permitting kind of overarching framework, it's not intended to be a one-stop shop. 01:51:41.760 --> 01:51:51.760 SPEAKER_05: Individual agencies are still going to have the jurisdictions that they have, all those agencies I mentioned before, and many others are going to have their normal roles. 01:51:51.760 --> 01:51:55.760 SPEAKER_05: And, yeah, honestly, we'll see how it works out. 01:51:55.760 --> 01:52:00.760 SPEAKER_05: For now, we're working in Kern and we're working in San Joaquin, soon to be working in Sacramento. 01:52:00.760 --> 01:52:10.760 SPEAKER_05: And so we will follow at the pace necessary to do that safely and ultimately get the public involved so we can get feedback from them. 01:52:10.760 --> 01:52:20.760 SPEAKER_05: Our projects can be designed and implemented with public concerns and comments addressed there. 01:52:20.760 --> 01:52:22.760 Unknown: Questions, comments? 01:52:22.760 --> 01:52:26.760 Unknown: Okay, community engagement piece. 01:52:26.760 --> 01:52:28.760 SPEAKER_05: Some regulatory paths require that. 01:52:28.760 --> 01:52:30.760 SPEAKER_05: Grant monies typically require that. 01:52:30.760 --> 01:52:36.760 SPEAKER_05: We've secured a number of federal grants, which all promptly got erased with this new administration. 01:52:36.760 --> 01:52:40.760 SPEAKER_05: But all of those have this component of community engagement. 01:52:40.760 --> 01:52:52.760 SPEAKER_05: I'll just tell you that CRC does this as a regular course of business, and so much so that in our corporate structure, which is not gross and bloated, it's kind of a lean, mean machine, as Joe will tell you. 01:52:52.760 --> 01:52:57.760 SPEAKER_05: And we believe in this enough that we have a vice president that does nothing but community engagement. 01:52:57.760 --> 01:53:02.760 Unknown: Spends time in the community at rallies, at protests, you know, where the people are. 01:53:02.760 --> 01:53:05.760 SPEAKER_05: We say we go to where they are, and we truly mean it. 01:53:05.760 --> 01:53:12.760 SPEAKER_05: And I think the commitment of a vice president level person who deals with this is a testament to that. 01:53:12.760 --> 01:53:25.760 SPEAKER_05: I have done personally a ton of work in the San Joaquin Delta, and one of the grants that we got was for a reservoir out in the Delta named Victoria Island, and that's our Carbon Terrevault III reservoir. 01:53:26.760 --> 01:53:34.760 SPEAKER_05: We did receive a federal grant to do some test wells there, as Joe mentioned, to test the geology, figure out what injection rates. 01:53:34.760 --> 01:53:38.760 SPEAKER_05: First of all, is the geology sufficient and an appropriate place to put it? 01:53:38.760 --> 01:53:44.760 SPEAKER_05: But then well-designed injection rates, things like that, we were hoping to get money to do that well. 01:53:44.760 --> 01:53:54.760 SPEAKER_05: As a course of that, the community benefits plan, or the community engagement piece of that grant application, we talked about forming a community body, 01:53:54.760 --> 01:54:00.760 SPEAKER_05: a project advisory body that was made up of community members, which we brought inside the tent, and we show them everything. 01:54:00.760 --> 01:54:04.760 SPEAKER_05: They're involved in every piece of the project. 01:54:04.760 --> 01:54:09.760 SPEAKER_05: The grant got canceled the day before I was supposed to have my first meeting with the project advisory body. 01:54:09.760 --> 01:54:15.760 SPEAKER_05: So, you know, I kind of came up with this as principle, hashtag principle, not politics. 01:54:15.760 --> 01:54:19.760 SPEAKER_05: And, you know, it's much more important for us to engage with the folks. 01:54:19.760 --> 01:54:26.760 SPEAKER_05: If we ever hope to go forward with a project like this, you have to have buy-in, and we don't actually call it buy-in. 01:54:26.760 --> 01:54:28.760 SPEAKER_05: That assumes that you've already made a decision. 01:54:28.760 --> 01:54:29.760 SPEAKER_05: We build in. 01:54:29.760 --> 01:54:40.760 SPEAKER_05: So when we're engaging with folks, we want them to be a part of that, because it's honestly a heck of a lot cheaper and easier to do it on the front end than it is redesign a project. 01:54:40.760 --> 01:54:47.760 SPEAKER_05: We opened a satellite office in San Joaquin County, a brick and mortar that we're at, and staff, not every day. 01:54:48.760 --> 01:54:57.760 SPEAKER_05: I'm there about once a week per month, and we meet with groups from Rotary Clubs, Kiwanis Clubs, churches. 01:54:57.760 --> 01:55:04.760 SPEAKER_05: We go, again, where the people are to hear what their concerns are about our project and how can we make them better. 01:55:04.760 --> 01:55:13.760 SPEAKER_05: And we've used that project advisory body to open up their networks and to take us into communities where we would otherwise not really have had an inroad. 01:55:13.760 --> 01:55:20.760 SPEAKER_05: And so they take us into those sacred places of people's backyards and people's front porches to talk about things like this. 01:55:20.760 --> 01:55:27.760 SPEAKER_05: And so I just can't stress it enough about how much time and effort should go into those kinds of things. 01:55:27.760 --> 01:55:29.760 SPEAKER_05: And it shows we don't have the permit yet. 01:55:29.760 --> 01:55:35.760 SPEAKER_05: We haven't started on the land use piece, which will take another two-plus years. 01:55:35.760 --> 01:55:37.760 SPEAKER_05: Construction will take another two-plus years. 01:55:37.760 --> 01:55:46.760 SPEAKER_05: So here we are backing up almost seven years, and we've been engaged with the public on a monthly basis about how this is going to work. 01:55:46.760 --> 01:56:06.760 SPEAKER_05: We have existing, very public partnerships with San Joaquin Delta College, both labs, Improve Your Tomorrow, El Concilio, iHub, San Joaquin, lots and lots of folks, hundreds of folks, maybe even thousands that we've gone to and talked about our project and brought them into our fold. 01:56:06.760 --> 01:56:15.760 SPEAKER_05: And finally, a huge deal, very much an anomaly for an oil and gas company, but we have the only project library agreement for an oil and gas producer in the state of California. 01:56:15.760 --> 01:56:24.760 SPEAKER_05: So that brings another dynamic, I think, which is very positive to getting these projects properly executed. 01:56:24.760 --> 01:56:25.760 Unknown: That's it. 01:56:25.760 --> 01:56:27.760 SPEAKER_05: Great. Thank you. 01:56:27.760 --> 01:56:29.760 SPEAKER_08: And just a quick question on the regulations. 01:56:29.760 --> 01:56:36.760 SPEAKER_08: So CARB hasn't finished the regulations from the value act on the carbon. 01:56:36.760 --> 01:56:37.760 SPEAKER_05: They're working on it. 01:56:37.760 --> 01:56:50.760 SPEAKER_05: They just announced today a few more listening sessions, and so they're having, I think, starting in San Joaquin County a week after next, a 20-something, and then they're following up with statewide meetings, and they just released a couple more down in Long Beach today. 01:56:50.760 --> 01:56:54.760 SPEAKER_05: So a little bit behind, there's progress. 01:56:54.760 --> 01:56:55.760 SPEAKER_05: We're hopeful. 01:56:55.760 --> 01:56:59.760 SPEAKER_05: These are first-of-a-kind things, and our management, again, jump up and down about it. 01:56:59.760 --> 01:57:04.760 SPEAKER_05: It's not going fast enough, but the reality is, you know, number one takes a lot longer. 01:57:04.760 --> 01:57:05.760 SPEAKER_05: They get better. 01:57:05.760 --> 01:57:12.760 SPEAKER_05: So by the time we get through these nine that we have there, hopefully that process is a little bit more predictable and timely. 01:57:12.760 --> 01:57:16.760 SPEAKER_08: But that bill requires it to all go through CARB basically, so it's more of a one-stop shop. 01:57:16.760 --> 01:57:17.760 SPEAKER_08: Doesn't all have to. 01:57:17.760 --> 01:57:19.760 SPEAKER_05: CARB does have a role in the overall permitting. 01:57:19.760 --> 01:57:22.760 SPEAKER_05: So the one-stop shop piece is like who issues permits for certain things. 01:57:22.760 --> 01:57:24.760 SPEAKER_05: Those agencies, that won't change. 01:57:24.760 --> 01:57:33.760 SPEAKER_05: The idea of the framework, I believe, was setting, and I say that because there's some evidence for it, setting a minimal threshold for environmental compliance. 01:57:33.760 --> 01:57:40.760 SPEAKER_05: I mean, there are places that would be financially incentivized to do these on an exemption or something like that, 01:57:40.760 --> 01:57:45.760 SPEAKER_05: and I think part of this was setting an agency in a bar that says, you're not going to do that. 01:57:45.760 --> 01:57:46.760 SPEAKER_05: That makes no sense. 01:57:46.760 --> 01:57:47.760 SPEAKER_05: Yeah. 01:57:47.760 --> 01:57:48.760 SPEAKER_06: Yeah, go ahead. 01:57:48.760 --> 01:57:52.760 SPEAKER_06: You mentioned you have a project between Elk Grove and Gold. 01:57:52.760 --> 01:57:53.760 SPEAKER_06: Yes, sir. 01:57:53.760 --> 01:57:54.760 SPEAKER_06: Sacramento County. 01:57:54.760 --> 01:57:55.760 SPEAKER_06: Yes, sir. 01:57:55.760 --> 01:57:57.760 SPEAKER_06: We don't have one of the regulations. 01:57:57.760 --> 01:57:59.760 SPEAKER_06: We're not one of the counties that has an existing regulation. 01:57:59.760 --> 01:58:02.760 SPEAKER_06: So you just sort of fly in line there. 01:58:02.760 --> 01:58:03.760 SPEAKER_06: Not really fly in line. 01:58:03.760 --> 01:58:06.760 SPEAKER_05: We're just not to the land use permit part yet. 01:58:06.760 --> 01:58:13.760 SPEAKER_05: So in this case, we're progressing the Class 6, and so we would get authorization from the EPA to do the injection project, 01:58:13.760 --> 01:58:16.760 SPEAKER_05: but we have not started the land use project. 01:58:16.760 --> 01:58:18.760 SPEAKER_05: We have started discussions with the county. 01:58:18.760 --> 01:58:23.760 SPEAKER_05: I'm not sure yet if we'll ask them to do another separate ordinance and regulation. 01:58:23.760 --> 01:58:28.760 SPEAKER_05: I think time won't tell as to – we know CEQA. 01:58:28.760 --> 01:58:33.760 SPEAKER_05: We know that compliance with CEQA would be an obvious requirement, 01:58:33.760 --> 01:58:38.760 SPEAKER_05: but if it's right for Sacramento to do full EIRs and things like that, that's what we're going to do. 01:58:38.760 --> 01:58:42.760 SPEAKER_05: So you're working with the federal government to get the initial approval first. 01:58:42.760 --> 01:58:45.760 SPEAKER_06: You'll still have to come back and do a CEQA process with the county, 01:58:45.760 --> 01:58:47.760 SPEAKER_06: even though there's no existing framework under – 01:58:47.760 --> 01:58:51.760 SPEAKER_06: I mean, flying blind is probably not the right term, 01:58:51.760 --> 01:58:55.760 SPEAKER_06: but there's just no existing framework under which you can make that application. 01:58:55.760 --> 01:58:56.760 SPEAKER_06: That's correct. 01:58:56.760 --> 01:58:57.760 SPEAKER_05: That's correct. 01:58:57.760 --> 01:59:00.760 SPEAKER_05: And that uncertainty just kills business, as you well know. 01:59:00.760 --> 01:59:04.760 SPEAKER_05: And so any of those state agencies that issue a permit, if there's not someone closer to it, 01:59:04.760 --> 01:59:07.760 SPEAKER_05: they're the CEQA lead agency, and they would have that obligation. 01:59:07.760 --> 01:59:08.760 SPEAKER_05: Okay. Thank you. 01:59:08.760 --> 01:59:10.760 Unknown: It's important to know that – 01:59:10.760 --> 01:59:13.760 SPEAKER_04: Go ahead. 01:59:13.760 --> 01:59:20.760 SPEAKER_04: It's important to understand that EPA authorization or permit issuance doesn't allow us to inject CO2 01:59:20.760 --> 01:59:23.760 SPEAKER_04: without the proper land use permits that couple it. 01:59:23.760 --> 01:59:27.760 SPEAKER_04: So there's no kind of working around that. 01:59:27.760 --> 01:59:33.760 SPEAKER_04: No, but you have to get the EPA approval before you can even sort of start on the local stuff. 01:59:33.760 --> 01:59:35.760 SPEAKER_06: Not necessarily. 01:59:35.760 --> 01:59:37.760 SPEAKER_05: You could do them in any order. 01:59:37.760 --> 01:59:38.760 SPEAKER_05: You could even do them parallel paths. 01:59:38.760 --> 01:59:41.760 SPEAKER_05: You can't do either until they're both done, basically. 01:59:41.760 --> 01:59:45.760 SPEAKER_05: You can't do any injection, or construction, actually. 01:59:45.760 --> 01:59:47.760 Unknown: Thank you. 01:59:47.760 --> 01:59:49.760 SPEAKER_02: Fascinating. 01:59:49.760 --> 01:59:52.760 SPEAKER_02: So layers of sand under layers of shale. 01:59:52.760 --> 01:59:54.760 Unknown: Okay. 01:59:54.760 --> 02:00:00.760 Unknown: So what's the target price for, say, sequestering a ton of CO2? 02:00:00.760 --> 02:00:02.760 Unknown: Is it too early to know? 02:00:02.760 --> 02:00:05.760 Unknown: There's a wide range, and I don't know. 02:00:05.760 --> 02:00:10.760 SPEAKER_05: You probably better to answer that question to me and keep us out of trouble for doing so. 02:00:10.760 --> 02:00:14.760 Unknown: Yeah, I'd say you have to defer to our commercial groups on that. 02:00:14.760 --> 02:00:15.760 SPEAKER_04: It's a range. 02:00:15.760 --> 02:00:19.760 SPEAKER_04: It depends on – you know, there's economies of scale to the size of projects, 02:00:19.760 --> 02:00:25.760 SPEAKER_04: the distance between source and sink, the complexity of the project, 02:00:25.760 --> 02:00:28.760 SPEAKER_04: the impurities in the CO2, the design requirements of the well. 02:00:28.760 --> 02:00:31.760 SPEAKER_04: There's a lot that goes into it. 02:00:31.760 --> 02:00:38.760 Unknown: I think, you know, it becomes a commercial negotiation in terms of how the pricing structure works. 02:00:38.760 --> 02:00:43.760 SPEAKER_04: And so I tend to kind of stay below ground in that area. 02:00:43.760 --> 02:00:47.760 SPEAKER_04: So I don't know that I'm the right person to answer that. 02:00:47.760 --> 02:00:50.760 Unknown: So we're not quite sure yet, or? 02:00:50.760 --> 02:00:59.760 Unknown: I would say that when you look at the 45-Q price of $85 per ton, 02:00:59.760 --> 02:01:04.760 SPEAKER_04: if CAPTURE kind of ends up costing about that, 02:01:04.760 --> 02:01:07.760 SPEAKER_04: it doesn't leave much room to pay for transport and storage. 02:01:07.760 --> 02:01:10.760 SPEAKER_04: And so the cost is not zero. 02:01:10.760 --> 02:01:11.760 SPEAKER_04: It's something more than that. 02:01:11.760 --> 02:01:15.760 SPEAKER_04: And so we need to look at other mechanisms to support project economics. 02:01:15.760 --> 02:01:20.760 SPEAKER_04: I assume this would be in addition to the $85 storage. 02:01:20.760 --> 02:01:21.760 SPEAKER_02: Yeah. 02:01:21.760 --> 02:01:28.760 Unknown: Yeah, so, you know, the incentive for 45-Q is $85 per ton. 02:01:28.760 --> 02:01:33.760 SPEAKER_04: There are other stackable kind of incentives in the state of California, 02:01:33.760 --> 02:01:36.760 SPEAKER_04: like Japan Invest, CARB-L-CFS, other things. 02:01:36.760 --> 02:01:42.760 SPEAKER_04: But, yeah, if CAPTURE is $85, I think that's kind of what you said, 02:01:42.760 --> 02:01:48.760 SPEAKER_04: and it varies, it's expensive, it, you know, in general the initial CAPEX 02:01:48.760 --> 02:01:53.760 SPEAKER_04: is probably 80% CAPTURE, 20% storage, if that puts you in ballpark. 02:01:53.760 --> 02:01:55.760 SPEAKER_04: I wouldn't say the cost per ton is necessarily the same. 02:01:55.760 --> 02:01:59.760 SPEAKER_04: I was trying to come up with sort of an educated guess on it. 02:01:59.760 --> 02:02:08.440 SPEAKER_02: of about 2,500 kilowatt hours per ton of CO2, 85 bucks a ton, about three and a half cents 02:02:08.440 --> 02:02:12.520 SPEAKER_02: would be the sort of the cost per kilowatt hour. 02:02:12.520 --> 02:02:17.520 SPEAKER_02: So I was wondering how much we were going to add to that. 02:02:17.520 --> 02:02:19.239 SPEAKER_04: I don't know that I have a number for you there. 02:02:19.239 --> 02:02:20.239 SPEAKER_04: Okay. 02:02:20.239 --> 02:02:21.239 SPEAKER_04: Yeah. 02:02:21.239 --> 02:02:22.239 SPEAKER_04: You do that something we can get back. 02:02:22.239 --> 02:02:23.239 SPEAKER_04: It's early. 02:02:23.239 --> 02:02:24.239 SPEAKER_04: Thank you. 02:02:24.239 --> 02:02:25.239 SPEAKER_02: Thank you very much. 02:02:25.239 --> 02:02:26.239 SPEAKER_02: Fascinating. 02:02:26.239 --> 02:02:30.439 SPEAKER_02: I'll have just one little question. 02:02:30.439 --> 02:02:36.599 SPEAKER_09: In terms of have you done, have you looking at like your portfolio, have you been trying 02:02:36.599 --> 02:02:39.760 SPEAKER_09: to co-locate them with these energy facilities? 02:02:39.760 --> 02:02:43.679 SPEAKER_09: Or you know where the combined cycle plans are in California for us? 02:02:43.679 --> 02:02:46.479 SPEAKER_05: We have a really good mapping of where the emissions are. 02:02:46.479 --> 02:02:51.920 SPEAKER_05: And from an economy of scale perspective, and just common sense, makes sense to go for 02:02:51.920 --> 02:02:53.979 SPEAKER_05: the heavy hitters first. 02:02:53.979 --> 02:02:57.419 SPEAKER_05: If you look at the map of those, a heck of a lot of them are landlocked. 02:02:57.419 --> 02:03:03.939 SPEAKER_05: And so that makes it almost 100% guaranteed that we're going to have to pipe CO2, move 02:03:03.939 --> 02:03:08.379 SPEAKER_05: CO2 from one way or the other from the source to the sink. 02:03:08.379 --> 02:03:15.699 SPEAKER_05: We really do a lot of work to try to map reservoirs with a proper source. 02:03:15.699 --> 02:03:18.659 SPEAKER_05: I wouldn't say it always is logical if you look at a map and say this one's going to 02:03:18.659 --> 02:03:20.079 SPEAKER_05: go here. 02:03:20.079 --> 02:03:22.899 SPEAKER_05: There's other things that go into that behind the scenes for us. 02:03:22.979 --> 02:03:26.819 SPEAKER_05: We've done a pretty good mapping of where those things are and kind of got in the sense 02:03:26.819 --> 02:03:31.699 SPEAKER_05: about how we would abate those emissions if we could or have the opportunity. 02:03:31.699 --> 02:03:34.500 SPEAKER_05: Have you seen much work being done on pipeline? 02:03:34.500 --> 02:03:39.979 SPEAKER_09: We had the law change on our own side permitting. 02:03:39.979 --> 02:03:45.019 SPEAKER_09: Are you seeing others in this field sort of progressing there, like assume the pipeline 02:03:45.019 --> 02:03:47.339 SPEAKER_09: experts? 02:03:47.339 --> 02:03:51.500 SPEAKER_05: In terms of permitting, constructability, materials, things like that. 02:03:51.579 --> 02:03:53.739 SPEAKER_05: I think it's an enormous amount of work. 02:03:53.739 --> 02:03:54.739 SPEAKER_09: It's an enormous amount of work. 02:03:54.739 --> 02:03:58.380 SPEAKER_09: Figuring out what's under the ground and where can we put this safely, permanently. 02:03:58.380 --> 02:04:03.020 SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and I think that has been a lot of our classics work as well as working iteratively 02:04:03.020 --> 02:04:08.500 SPEAKER_05: with the EPA about appropriate materials for different uses. 02:04:08.500 --> 02:04:12.420 SPEAKER_05: And so yeah, it's all progressing at the same rate. 02:04:12.420 --> 02:04:17.500 SPEAKER_05: Maybe not at the same rate, but it certainly is moving forward pretty quickly, I would 02:04:17.500 --> 02:04:18.500 SPEAKER_05: say. 02:04:18.500 --> 02:04:19.500 Unknown: All right. 02:04:19.500 --> 02:04:20.500 SPEAKER_09: That's lava. 02:04:20.500 --> 02:04:21.500 SPEAKER_09: Thank you so much and thank you to the other vendors. 02:04:21.500 --> 02:04:22.500 SPEAKER_09: Thanks for having us. 02:04:22.500 --> 02:04:23.500 SPEAKER_09: Really wonderful. 02:04:23.500 --> 02:04:24.500 SPEAKER_09: Smile. 02:04:24.500 --> 02:04:29.859 Unknown: Well, yes, thank you for all that information. 02:04:29.859 --> 02:04:34.500 SPEAKER_08: We rarely have meetings that go two hours, so you know we're geeks, energy geeks, and 02:04:34.500 --> 02:04:36.340 SPEAKER_08: we'll sit here and enjoy all this. 02:04:36.340 --> 02:04:38.300 SPEAKER_08: So thank you very much for all that. 02:04:38.300 --> 02:04:39.779 SPEAKER_08: I did have a card from David Wright. 02:04:39.779 --> 02:04:41.220 SPEAKER_08: I do not see him anymore. 02:04:41.220 --> 02:04:44.020 SPEAKER_08: I am sure this went on longer than he had expected. 02:04:44.020 --> 02:04:45.699 SPEAKER_08: So David, I apologize. 02:04:45.699 --> 02:04:49.699 SPEAKER_08: But if you do email any questions, we will answer them later. 02:04:49.699 --> 02:04:55.260 SPEAKER_08: And I can also ask, do we have any online commenters for questions? 02:04:55.260 --> 02:04:58.779 SPEAKER_08: I do not see any hands raised, so no. 02:04:58.779 --> 02:04:59.779 SPEAKER_08: Okay. 02:04:59.779 --> 02:05:00.779 SPEAKER_08: All right. 02:05:00.779 --> 02:05:06.619 SPEAKER_08: Well, with that, we will move on to our public comment for items that are not on the agenda, 02:05:06.619 --> 02:05:08.979 SPEAKER_08: but we don't have – I don't see any hands. 02:05:08.979 --> 02:05:09.979 SPEAKER_08: Okay. 02:05:09.979 --> 02:05:10.979 SPEAKER_08: All right. 02:05:10.979 --> 02:05:11.979 SPEAKER_08: Very good. 02:05:11.979 --> 02:05:19.659 SPEAKER_08: So with that, we have not received any requests, so we'll go ahead and the last item is the 02:05:19.659 --> 02:05:23.579 SPEAKER_08: summary of committee direction, but we didn't have any committee direction that I recall. 02:05:23.579 --> 02:05:24.579 SPEAKER_08: I don't have anything. 02:05:24.579 --> 02:05:25.579 Unknown: Yeah. 02:05:25.579 --> 02:05:30.099 SPEAKER_08: And I do want to say for the public, you know, we asked for these informational discussions 02:05:30.099 --> 02:05:35.380 SPEAKER_08: so that we get a lot more deeper understanding of what's coming up out there. 02:05:35.380 --> 02:05:41.460 SPEAKER_08: And I think we got a lot of really good information today, but our staff are the technical detail 02:05:41.460 --> 02:05:46.139 SPEAKER_08: people, and we trust them to give us good, you know, projects and information. 02:05:46.140 --> 02:05:51.100 SPEAKER_08: But this for us is just trying to get a handle on what's going on out there because there 02:05:51.100 --> 02:05:52.579 SPEAKER_08: is so much happening. 02:05:52.579 --> 02:05:54.500 SPEAKER_08: So I hope everybody appreciated that. 02:05:54.500 --> 02:05:56.440 SPEAKER_08: I know I did. 02:05:56.440 --> 02:06:00.100 SPEAKER_08: And I do want to say I think this is the first committee meeting of our new CEO. 02:06:00.100 --> 02:06:06.740 SPEAKER_08: So I do want to say welcome to our new CEO, Laura Angway, for her first meeting officially 02:06:06.740 --> 02:06:12.260 SPEAKER_08: as our CEO, even though she's obviously been here for 22 years, and this is not her first 02:06:12.260 --> 02:06:13.260 SPEAKER_08: meeting. 02:06:13.260 --> 02:06:15.260 SPEAKER_08: So anyway, that's fun. 02:06:15.900 --> 02:06:20.220 SPEAKER_08: And with that, I think we will go ahead and close the meeting. 02:06:20.220 --> 02:06:21.220 SPEAKER_08: So I'll adjourn. 02:06:21.220 --> 02:06:22.220 SPEAKER_08: And thank you all. 02:06:22.220 --> 02:06:23.220 SPEAKER_08: Appreciate it. 02:06:23.220 --> 02:06:23.720 SPEAKER_08: Have a good night.